"Bonnie Scotland we'll support you ever more" element of fans has to go

[sbcmfc]

1 minute ago, Ohhhh diego maradona said:

The problem for me with the SFA is that it is business men running it and not football people. we should be getting guys like Alex ferguson, Kenny Dalglish, souness involved. football these days seems more about the business side and how much they can make from the fans

I was looking on Internet to find out how regan managed to get the job in the first place and can't fathom it out. his linkedin page is full of business waffle. 

I found a recent article from him in the guardian and it completely sums up the above - full of business buzzwords. copied below:-

 

We have to work a lot closer with the clubs to recognise that developing young Scottish talent suits everybody. That means coaching support, data sharing, talent identification, investment through measurable performance outcomes and academy infrastructure, proving opportunity for kids to rise up and play for Scotland.

"measureable performance outcomes", "talent identification"... deary me. 

for me, the Sfa and spl have to take the main responsibility for the current state of the Scotland team, and the game in Scotland in general, and any boycott for me would be to force a complete change in both organisations. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, but, to play devils advocate, if we had an SFA full of "football people" we would probably accuse them of being an old boys club...

You probably want a good balance of both football people and business folk.

Unfortunately our mix seems to be "business people" with a bowling club mentality.

[DoonTheSlope]

3 minutes ago, GhostZapper said:

 

The member clubs of ATAC run ATAC. the Dunfermline Tartan Army is a club member, and I am the atac rep on behalf of the DTA.

 

I feel ATAC certainly do represent the views of fans. fans within the member clubs. atac reps meet quarterly to discuss the issues that their members are raising, and we engage constructively with the SFA to address some of these points.

The point made earlier about ATAC sooking up to the SFA couldn't be further from reality.  ATAC was very critical of the pricing strategy a few years ago which strained the relationship with the SFA. However we have worked past that for the benefit of the fans, and have already saw further benefits come from these conversations.  

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply but can I ask what benefits have we seen implemented to date?

[glasgow jock]

5 hours ago, Chief said:

The ATAC will be full of the types more interested in putting a pin badge in their glengarry than watching a winning football team. 

Very true - it gets me so pi$$ed off.

[ShedTA]

1 minute ago, sbcmfc said:

I'm not disagreeing with you, but, to play devils advocate, if we had an SFA full of "football people" we would probably accuse them of being an old boys club...

You probably want a good balance of both football people and business folk.

Unfortunately our mix seems to be "business people" with a bowling club mentality.

correct we don't need people who are old school like ferguson, souness or dalglish. We need people with ideas for the future to take us forward. the danger with legends like the above is that they could take us backwards doing what they know rather than what is needed to transform the game.

[Auld_Reekie]

5 hours ago, adamntg said:

Meh, we just played them last month.  He probably saw them then.  

But if you're looking for problems then you would probably pick up on it. 

You can't be serious?! You don't see the problem with employing an international manager for him to decide to pretty much do part-time hours during an international break. send the players home and disappear off on a golfing holiday? If he's not going to watch the opposition, why doesn't he keep the players together and having a couple of training days - you know, give Berra more training time with a defensive partner, get Wallace more training time with the lads, get McArthur more involved as a potential replacement for Fletcher. Anything - start thinking ahead to the next games instead of waiting for the next international break.

Your attitude begs the question - what would it take for you to start feeling like Strachan and the SFA are taking the piss out of you? 

[tartanmartin]

14 minutes ago, DoonTheSlope said:

Thanks for your reply but can I ask what benefits have we seen implemented to date?

I'm sure there's a list of them on the ATAC website.

[tartanmartin]

5 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Tartan Army self appointed spokesman. 

Certainly doesn't speak for me with the utter dross that comes out his mouth.

"appointed" by the press to that lofty elevated position that you clearly are in awe of.
so far as I'm aware Hamish Husband always states that he's representing WESTA and he was appointed their spokesman democratically by their members.
blame the lazy MSM for referring to him as the TA spokesman.

[DoonTheSlope]

4 minutes ago, tartanmartin said:

I'm sure there's a list of them on the ATAC website.

Any chance of a link? From what I can see its just a blowhard account of what they are able to do and a list of rules for a Tartan Army cup which hasn't been contested since 2011

[WESTA]

2 minutes ago, tartanmartin said:

"appointed" by the press to that lofty elevated position that you clearly are in awe of.
so far as I'm aware Hamish Husband always states that he's representing WESTA and he was appointed their spokesman democratically by their members.
blame the lazy MSM for referring to him as the TA spokesman.

Hamish is elected by democratic choice of the membership at an AGM, as spokesman for WESTA.

If he is erroneously referred to as something else, we suggest you take it up with the person or body who has made the error.

[tartanmartin]

1 minute ago, DoonTheSlope said:

Any chance of a link? From what I can see its just a blowhard account of what they are able to do and a list of rules for a Tartan Army cup which hasn't been contested since 2011

CBA - try google. 

[DaveyDenoon]

38 minutes ago, Ohhhh diego maradona said:

I was looking on Internet to find out how regan managed to get the job in the first place and can't fathom it out. his linkedin page is full of business waffle.

That is probably exactly how he got the job

If I had to choose between getting rid of Regan or Strachan, the choice is easy.

Regan is an underachieving failure and that he was given the job in the first place given his track record, never mind still being allowed to remain in place, is beyond comprehension.

Edited November 16, 2016 by DaveyDenoon

[DaveyDenoon]

10 minutes ago, DoonTheSlope said:

Any chance of a link? From what I can see its just a blowhard account of what they are able to do and a list of rules for a Tartan Army cup which hasn't been contested since 2011

Reduced ticket prices.

 

[Auld_Reekie]

Does anyone have a breakdown of ATAC numbers? How many fans do they "officially" represent. I'll be honest, most boys I know going to games aren't affiliated to any ATAC member, so it's questionable how representative they can be. Would be good to see the numbers though. From an outsiders point of view, ATAC always seemed a kind of toothless body. As others have mentioned, what tangible results can ATAC point to to underline their influence? Do they have a website outlining charter, constitution, etc?

IMO, there needs to an overhaul of ATAC or something like it, and a drive to make it more relevant and represent a far greater number of fans through some kind of minimal membership. It should distance itself from the SFA and the SSC and do more work to organise, represent and lead the views of Scottish fans. If SFA dont want to listen that's their choice but times like now are why fans need better organisation - couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery never mind a protest or boycott.

 

[DoonTheSlope]

Just now, DaveyDenoon said:

Reduced ticket prices.

 

[tartanmartin]

6 hours ago, Mazziessc said:

Aye yer spot on. Had a couple of email responses.......

As for ATAC’s influence I don’t know what more we can do and would put our relationship with them in the same category as Strachan’s, i.e. it’s pretty much up to the SFA at present.

 

One thing is absolutely for sure, if ATAC start getting involved in potential boycotts and protests along the lines you’ve detailed we may as well pack up as they would never deal with us again – it’s simply not what we’re about I would respectfully suggest.

 

We had a talk a number of years ago whether or not we should be a pressure group that agitates for change and coordinates protests and boycotts. I'm open to either but I agree that if we do take that form then the SFA will be unlikely to constructively engage with us again.

They have absolutely no interest in participating in any boycott or organising one never mind speaking to the SFA in case they upset them.

what have they said about the SFA and Regan needing root and branch reform?  you're clearly ITK.

[tartanmartin]

2 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

Does anyone have a breakdown of ATAC numbers? How many fans do they "officially" represent. I'll be honest, most boys I know going to games aren't affiliated to any ATAC member, so it's questionable how representative they can be. Would be good to see the numbers though. From an outsiders point of view, ATAC always seemed a kind of toothless body. As others have mentioned, what tangible results can ATAC point to to underline their influence? Do they have a website outlining charter, constitution, etc?

IMO, there needs to an overhaul of ATAC or something like it, and a drive to make it more relevant and represent a far greater number of fans through some kind of minimal membership. It should distance itself from the SFA and the SSC and do more work to organise, represent and lead the views of Scottish fans. If SFA dont want to listen that's their choice but times like now are why fans need better organisation - couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery never mind a protest or boycott.

 

think they represent around 1500 through the membership of the clubs that make up ATAC.  their site is here http://www.associationoftartanarmyclubs.com/

you'll see from the site that they don't claim to represent the TA.

[Auld_Reekie]

To answer my own question: http://www.associationoftartanarmyclubs.com/

Some half-interesting stuff on there although no timestamp, so not sure when some of the achievements are from. There does appear to be a constitution though and it doesn't look all too bad, although comes across as more of an information sharing body though (news about tickets, bus parking, etc).

Not quite sure it's a good use of their time/money to organise "sporran guides" and fitba tournaments.

Also curious is I dont see any minutes of meetings with the SFA or even internal ATAC meetings, etc. 

As mentioned earlier, it would be good if steps were taken to make the voice of Scottish supporters more potent. More organised, uptake in membership/representation, etc and that probably requires stepping back from the SFA a bit. SFA are probably keen to keep them close but weak, which is justification in itself for taking a step back.

[Auld_Reekie]

5 minutes ago, tartanmartin said:

think they represent around 1500 through the membership of the clubs that make up ATAC.  their site is here http://www.associationoftartanarmyclubs.com/

you'll see from the site that they don't claim to represent the TA.

Thanks Martin.

1500 is a very low number and is perfect example of why ATAC is completely unrepresentative or impotent when it comes to holding influence. That means the vast majority of Scottish supporters are a disorganised, unrepresented crowd at mercy of SFA and SSC.

IMO, that needs to change.

[tartanmartin]

6 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

Also curious is I dont see any minutes of meetings with the SFA or even internal ATAC meetings, etc. 

perhaps any minutes are disseminated to the member clubs?

[Squirrelhumper]

34 minutes ago, tartanmartin said:

"appointed" by the press to that lofty elevated position that you clearly are in awe of.
so far as I'm aware Hamish Husband always states that he's representing WESTA and he was appointed their spokesman democratically by their members.
blame the lazy MSM for referring to him as the TA spokesman.

He doesn't have to speak to them. It's normally a sounbite for some cringey p1sh about whether we'll be supporting ABE ar a major finals. 

[flicktokick]

3 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

Thanks Martin.

1500 is a very low number and is perfect example of why ATAC is completely unrepresentative or impotent when it comes to holding influence. That means the vast majority of Scottish supporters are a disorganised, unrepresented crowd at mercy of SFA and SSC.

IMO, that needs to change.

ATAC can only be representative of the people that do join TA Clubs. If you want to change that then you have to either join and work from within or set up something else. That option is open to every single Scotland fan.
As I  have mentioned more than once there is also the Scottish Football Supporters Association which has more than 65,000 members, it is free to join and you can put your points about the SFA/SPFL and your own team on the joining form..

There seems to be a great appetite on here for calling for change and insisting that something must be done. Unfortunately there is also a tendency for lambasting any existing avenues for getting that message across.

Scottish football fans have been calling for change across the game for years but as they cannot speak with a single voice, or work together in any meaningful way, they have always been able to be ignored. Lone voices bleating on a message board will change nothing.

If you want something to happen, join something, work together and there may be a chance otherwise you may as well stand outside Hampden with a pea shooter firing at the walls.

[Flure]

12 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

Thanks Martin.

1500 is a very low number and is perfect example of why ATAC is completely unrepresentative or impotent when it comes to holding influence. That means the vast majority of Scottish supporters are a disorganised, unrepresented crowd at mercy of SFA and SSC.

IMO, that needs to change.

Wrong.

ATAC is perfectly representative of Scotland fans.

Because it's made up of typical Scotland fans.

[flicktokick]

4 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

He doesn't have to speak to them. It's normally a sounbite for some cringey p1sh about whether we'll be supporting ABE ar a major finals. 

Well he could 'not talk to them' but that would make him a fairly hopeless press spokesman. And do you not think they would just get another body to fill the gap?

[Flure]

7 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

He doesn't have to speak to them. It's normally a sounbite for some cringey p1sh about whether we'll be supporting ABE ar a major finals. 

He is the "spokesman" for WESTA. It's his role to speak to "them" on behalf of WESTA.

The people who elect him have elected him for years. So somebody thinks he's doing a good job.

I'm a WESTA member - and I voted for him.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Flure

[Auld_Reekie]

10 minutes ago, tartanmartin said:

perhaps any minutes are disseminated to the member clubs?

Fair point. Perhaps someone can confirm?

1 minute ago, flicktokick said:

ATAC can only be representative of the people that do join TA Clubs. If you want to change that then you have to either join and work from within or set up something else. That option is open to every single Scotland fan.

Another fair point. Im looking at ETA right now. That said, it's a chicken and egg situation - Id be more inclined to sign up if I thought it was a worthwhile organisation to be a member of. It doesnt feel like it is at all which probably explains why most don't bother. But yeah, I take your point. Would be good to see ATAC step up and show more balls though and collectively clubs finding ways in which to attract more members.