Education In Scotland

[Larky Masher]

28 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Folk were totally dismissive of Antidote I seem to recall when he was posting as he could 'see no (or little) fault with the SNP' etc etc... But now when it comes to Alan who makes Antidote look like Mr Unbiased and who can see only faults with the SNP, and has been like that for a decade 100% consistent now at least that I have witnessed (and it really is 100%, he has never taken a day off, not once ) but now we are being told we should listen to him.

Listen to fhucking Alan. Aye right. Total hypocrisy.

I'm not listening to Alan, I'm reflecting on my own experience.

[duncan II]

1 hour ago, Larky Masher said:

 

I think it's pretty clear this, like just about every other issue in Scotland these days, is split between those wishing a stick - any stick - to beat the SNP with and those who will blindly support them no matter what. It's a shame. I am a long-term independence supporter and I genuinely don't see anything changing that view. I also, more often than not, find myself agreeing largely with the SNP position. However, on this, I think there are real, serious problems with the whole issue of education in this country. This is not necessarily of the SNP's making but there should be scrutiny as to their response to it being brought up. For me, the fundamentals are not being taught properly - basic arithmetic, grammar and spelling. Primary teachers (generalisation here so apologies to those this doesn't apply to) often seem to be glorified nursery nurses, great with kids' needs on a social level, but I would argue perhaps not up to instilling good basic literary and numerical skills. So by the time kids get to secondary school they don't have these in place. When they come to doing their history, geography, science, whatever, they can't do so while getting their arguments across using good English skills. And too often, the teachers in these subjects won't (or can't) correct them. It's seen as an English Dept problem. My wife's a history teacher but is specifically told they can't mark down work for grammatical/spelling mistakes. I think that's wrong. When they go into workplace, an employer is looking for potential staff to be able to communicate well. Clients will be put off by poorly worded letters, etc.

 

Anyway, that's what I think. Instil proper basic skills early.

[Guest BlueGaz]

1 hour ago, duncan II said:

I think it's pretty clear this, like just about every other issue in Scotland these days, is split between those wishing a stick - any stick - to beat the SNP with and those who will blindly support them no matter what. It's a shame. I am a long-term independence supporter and I genuinely don't see anything changing that view. I also, more often than not, find myself agreeing largely with the SNP position. However, on this, I think there are real, serious problems with the whole issue of education in this country. This is not necessarily of the SNP's making but there should be scrutiny as to their response to it being brought up. For me, the fundamentals are not being taught properly - basic arithmetic, grammar and spelling. Primary teachers (generalisation here so apologies to those this doesn't apply to) often seem to be glorified nursery nurses, great with kids' needs on a social level, but I would argue perhaps not up to instilling good basic literary and numerical skills. So by the time kids get to secondary school they don't have these in place. When they come to doing their history, geography, science, whatever, they can't do so while getting their arguments across using good English skills. And too often, the teachers in these subjects won't (or can't) correct them. It's seen as an English Dept problem. My wife's a history teacher but is specifically told they can't mark down work for grammatical/spelling mistakes. I think that's wrong. When they go into workplace, an employer is looking for potential staff to be able to communicate well. Clients will be put off by poorly worded letters, etc.

 

Anyway, that's what I think. Instil proper basic skills early.

The statistics we are seeing show a steady decline since 1999.  What happened that year that is important/fundamental here?

What annoys me now is politicians blaming/partially blaming those that were in power before them, as you say above.  I appreciate that is a very political thing to do, but I suspect that whoever had been in power since 1999, would not have changed this and we would have a similar outcome.

Why do think the SNP should not be bashed with a stick over this?  Of course they should be.  They are not up to the job and it is now starting to show. If they were in any way commercial they would have been out of business years ago.  But they aren't as they have hearts voting for them.

The issue we have is that we currently have no-one we can trust to run Scotland.  If we did have an honest, straight down the line party to vote for, that most could trust, who were open and consistent, a yes vote would be almost guaranteed.  

But I also agree with you, it is a huge shame.  

[Rossy]

17 minutes ago, BlueGaz said:

 

Why do think the SNP should not be bashed with a stick over this?  Of course they should be.  They are not up to the job and it is now starting to show. If they were in any way commercial they would have been out of business years ago.  But they aren't as they have hearts voting for them.

 

I notice that you completely ignore the fact that crime statistics are at their lowest ever, that the Scottish NHS is the best performing in the UK, and the huge amount of (succesful) infrascruture investment in the country since the SNP came into power.

I agree that work needs to be done on education, but to say the SNP 'are not up to the job' is just regurgitating factless rubbish. 

[Guest BlueGaz]

3 minutes ago, Rossy said:

I notice that you completely ignore the fact that crime statistics are at their lowest ever, that the Scottish NHS is the best performing in the UK, and the huge amount of (succesful) infrascruture investment in the country since the SNP came into power.

I agree that work needs to be done on education, but to say the SNP 'are not up to the job' is just regurgitating factless rubbish. 

Not ignoring anything else Rossy - we are on a thread talking about these new stats for the education side of things.  I am saying the SNP are not up to the job, but also saying that there isn't anyone up here at the moment that is up to the job, so not picking on your beloved.

[phart]

16 hours ago, Topcat said:

The issue to be noted here is that the PISA/OECD tests are a total waste of time. It compares us to countries like China and regions like Shanghai/Hong Kong whose kids go to daytime school number 1, eat, go to evening school number 2, eat, go to a private tutor, sleep for 3/4 hours and repeat - you may very well call it mental abuse and I would agree with you - is a bit like comparing Albion Rovers and Barcelona. Some schools/regions also engineer the 'best' pupils to do the test when they should have been randomly selected - it's completely open to abuse and I'm sure there are quite a few skeletons in the PISA closet. 

 

people do workarounds on every test though, the old system was just set the pass arbitrarily at the score that gives a slight higher pass mark than the year before. When i did my PGDE we were told this.

They need to decide what it is they are actually testing for, atm it's we teach you to pass a test.

Also agree can't compare our system to others that aren't like for like.

.

[Larky Masher]

31 minutes ago, Rossy said:

I notice that you completely ignore the fact that crime statistics are at their lowest ever, that the Scottish NHS is the best performing in the UK, and the huge amount of (succesful) infrascruture investment in the country since the SNP came into power.

I agree that work needs to be done on education, but to say the SNP 'are not up to the job' is just regurgitating factless rubbish. 

I'm sorry but you can't given the health statistics you can't tout the NHS as being a roaring success.

[duncan II]

56 minutes ago, BlueGaz said:

.

Why do think the SNP should not be bashed with a stick over this?  Of course they should be.

Not saying this should not be used as a stick with which to bash the SNP...should it be warranted. I'm not sure at the moment it is but that remains to be seen. I agree they need to kept on their toes, though, so it doesn't get any worse. I was just pointing out (probably needlessly) that it is just seen as another thing with which to attack them. Those doing the attacking are largely doing it cos they hate the SNP and it's one more reason.

[Larky Masher]

1 minute ago, duncan II said:

 Those doing the attacking are largely doing it cos they hate the SNP and it's one more reason.

That is arrant nonsense.

[aaid]

1 hour ago, BlueGaz said:

The statistics we are seeing show a steady decline since 1999.  What happened that year that is important/fundamental here?

What annoys me now is politicians blaming/partially blaming those that were in power before them, as you say above.  I appreciate that is a very political thing to do, but I suspect that whoever had been in power since 1999, would not have changed this and we would have a similar outcome.

 

PISA has only been in existence since 2000.

[duncan II]

20 minutes ago, Larky Masher said:

That is arrant nonsense.

I disagree. What exactly is nonsense about it? I said that I think reactions to issues like this are getting increasingly polarised between the two main sides in Scottish politics. Comments from contributors on both sides, to me, bears this out.

[Larky Masher]

2 minutes ago, duncan II said:

I disagree. What exactly is nonsense about it? I said that I think reactions to issues like this are getting increasingly polarised between the two main sides in Scottish politics. Comments from contributors on both sides, to me, bears this out.

So if you criticise the SNP you can't be an SNP supporter?

[Hertsscot]

2 hours ago, duncan II said:

When they come to doing their history, geography, science, whatever, they can't do so while getting their arguments across using good English skills. And too often, the teachers in these subjects won't (or can't) correct them. It's seen as an English Dept problem. My wife's a history teacher but is specifically told they can't mark down work for grammatical/spelling mistakes.

I'm surprised by that and wonder how wide spread that instruction/advice is. English was my second subject specialism (never taught it since!) but whatever subject we were teaching we were always told that we were all teachers of English.  There has been a massive focus on literacy in English schools though too much correcting grammar, punctuation etc can be a bit soul destroying for students so you have to be a bit selective in terms of what you're 'highlighting for improvment'.

[Hertsscot]

Anyone know anything about the Irish education system. I teach along several Irish teachers from the Republic and have taught in Northern Ireland as well but no next to nothing about the Irish system.  I can't imagine its that much different so just wondered why they have been relatively successful.

[duncan II]

5 minutes ago, Larky Masher said:

So if you criticise the SNP you can't be an SNP supporter?

No. And some, like me, ARE critical about this. It's just an observation and probably a generalisation. I was just saying it's a shame tht some will jump on this just because, and some SNP supporters will defend it, just because.

[Larky Masher]

3 minutes ago, duncan II said:

No. And some, like me, ARE critical about this. It's just an observation and probably a generalisation. I was just saying it's a shame tht some will jump on this just because, and some SNP supporters will defend it, just because.

It's a rather sweeping generalisation but your final sentence is a much more accurate reflection,  the country isn't diametrically split there is a big grey area in the middle.

[Hertsscot]

20 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Anyone know anything about the Irish education system. I teach along several Irish teachers from the Republic and have taught in Northern Ireland as well but no next to nothing about the Irish system.  I can't imagine its that much different so just wondered why they have been relatively successful.

Okay, before some wise guy points it out I would like to apologise for the spelling mistakes and grammatical errors!

[Ally Bongo]

Is there any other Government in the World that is held to account as much as the SNP Scottish Government ?

I dont remember daily attacks on health, transport, education et al all those years Labour were in charge

[deecie]

1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said:

Is there any other Government in the World that is held to account as much as the SNP Scottish Government ?

I dont remember daily attacks on health, transport, education et al all those years Labour were in charge

Does it matter? If they don't like the criticism they should perform better.

[Hertsscot]

5 minutes ago, deecie said:

Does it matter? If they don't like the criticism they should perform better.

Isn't that missing Ally's point?  It's not that governments shouldn't be held to account but it's simply that there is little acceptance of good governance  by the SNP and a disproportionate attention to the bad, probably due to the political leanings of the mainstream media. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Hertsscot

[deecie]

1 minute ago, Hertsscot said:

Isn't that missing Ally's point?  It's not that governments shouldn't be held to account but it's simply that there is little acceptance of good governance  by the SNP and a disproportionate attention to the bad, probably due to the political leanings of the mainstream media. 

None of which excuses their poor performance when it comes to education.

[thplinth]

4 hours ago, Larky Masher said:

I'm not listening to Alan, I'm reflecting on my own experience.

Well you are another case in point Larky. You are another Alan in a way as I don't think I have ever seen you post a kind word about the SNP nor Independence. Yet you bizarrely claim to support them both.

You don't. I am amazed so many people buy it. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by thplinth

[Guest BlueGaz]

44 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Isn't that missing Ally's point?  It's not that governments shouldn't be held to account but it's simply that there is little acceptance of good governance  by the SNP and a disproportionate attention to the bad, probably due to the political leanings of the mainstream media. 

But, have the SNP not produced the biggest split and divide in Scotland in our life times?  What they have done is absolutely huge.  Appreciate that is a different argument, but in terms of the attention they are getting, coupled with modern times etc. such as social media and the ease of getting info to everyone, could that not be why?  

[TDYER63]

23 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Well you are another case in point Larky. You are another Alan in a way as I don't think I have ever seen you post a kind word about the SNP nor Independence. Yet you bizarrely claim to support them both.

You don't. I am amazed so many people buy it. 

Larky supports the SNP and independence ? Is this 1st April? I have been reading this board for 2 years and I can honestly say I assumed he was a strong unionist. Not because I assume anyone who critises the SNP is a unionist but because, like you, I dont think I have ever seen a complimentary post about the SNP. Quite the opposite.  Infact i was going to use the thread he has started on Humza Yousaf as Exhibit A of someone who will post anything anti snp that they can find. I am astonished .

It is one thing to expect political parties should be held to account , which they should, but I must say ,  if I felt so disenfranchised by their performance the way Larky does, I certainly wouldnt be voting for them.

I rarely get involved in any posts on reports etc that come out as it invariably results in a slanging match and nothing else, with the same people piping up, and usually started by Alan. 

 

[killiefaetheferry]

I would like to understand a bit more about the testing, how pupils are selected for testing, different demographics, how statistically significant the results are etc.

My experience so far in pursuing a career in education is that the teachers are very dedicated, and CFE has a good reputation amongst them. My worry is that you can have a great system, great teachers etc, but that children who are not brought up in a family where education is encouraged and valued are likely to underperform. Also, how do these other countries deal with disruptive behaviour ? How much homework is given ? Length of the school day ?

Sorry, I have lots more questions than answers on this as I find myself asking if we are really living in a country with declining standards.