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Every day another crisis, every day another indicator that it's not working, can't cope.  Anyone else reckon that this is just softening us up for when the Tories turn round and say it's unsustainable and can no longer afford it?  I certainly don't trust May with the future of the NHS

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They are in the process of privatising NHS England. They don't care if people suffer along the way. If they are allowed to continue down this route with NHS England then it is only a question of time before NHS Scotland will have to follow suit. Underfunding of NHS England will eventually filter through to NHS Scotland with reduction of the block grant.

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21 minutes ago, scoobydoo said:

I think that it is already affacting the scottish nhs and the government to reallocate funds to it

It is, and it's only going to get worse. It is becoming more and more obvious that the Tories don't care about the NHS. They wont even accept that there is a crisis in NHS England. They keep trying to tell us that this is just the usual extra busy period over winter and it will pass. It won't. One of the reasons this year's crisis is so bad is that last years didn't pass and the crisis continued through summer and autumn so that there was already a backlog before this winter started. It's not nearly at that stage in NHS Scotland yet, but it is only a question of time before we go down the same route unless something major changes.

Of course this is exactly what the Tories want. They know that the NHS needs to get into a really terrible state before the people will accept  full privatisation.

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2 hours ago, Bristolhibby said:

Fact of the matter is, if we want a modern effective NHS, we will have to pay for it through taxes. The clues in the name, a Service. Good Services cost money.

No point skirting around the issue. And any party of low taxation are lying.

We already pay for it through taxes.

Not always convinced throwing money at something is always the best way.  We're getting older sure.  But there is a lot of waste in the NHS, sometimes from people using the service.

It's far too complex and big an issue and instead of proper analysis we'll just end up budgeting for it with the %increase on top of historical block.  

Edited by PapofGlencoe
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58 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

We already pay for it through taxes.

Not always convinced throwing money at something is always the best way.  We're getting older sure.  But there is a lot of waste in the NHS, sometimes from people using the service.

It's far too complex and big an issue and instead of proper analysis we'll just end up budgeting for it with the %increase on top of historical block.  

Pay more I meant. 

Its like stamping on an Opera singers throat then wondering why she can't sing anymore. Efficiencies will only scratch the surface, (not saying that they shouldn't be chased at every opportunity). But the system is chronically underfunded, people live longer, survive things that would have killed them 50 years ago, and the treatments are more complex and expensive as medicine moves forward.

Not to mention research funding, that should be just as important as front line treatment. Cures for Cancer, heart disease, gene therapy, don't just happen.

If that meant a percentage increase in taxes, so be it. Otherwise we will all see our friends and family be failed and suffer at the time they need the NHS most.

J

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11 minutes ago, Bristolhibby said:

Pay more I meant. 

Its like stamping on an Opera singers throat then wondering why she can't sing anymore. Efficiencies will only scratch the surface, (not saying that they shouldn't be chased at every opportunity). But the system is chronically underfunded, people live longer, survive things that would have killed them 50 years ago, and the treatments are more complex and expensive as medicine moves forward.

Not to mention research funding, that should be just as important as front line treatment. Cures for Cancer, heart disease, gene therapy, don't just happen.

If that meant a percentage increase in taxes, so be it. Otherwise we will all see our friends and family be failed and suffer at the time they need the NHS most.

J

You may well be right and I'm all for funding what's needed.  Definitely, people on over 50k a year and the superich should be paying more, in my opinion to the overall pot.

I just think there are so many ideologies and partizanship that the block plus % increase is the easy way of looking at how this should be funded.  You would think too that the incredible advancement in technology would also allow for great savings to be made.  That bulk procurement should generate savings; I know they do but the contracts don't work.  There are hundreds of consultants that are paid an absolute fortune just looking at business improvement in the NHS; they say how something should be done (how this would save X), they take a cut of X and go onto the next job. The process never changes and we've just spent X for no change.

It's too big and complex to do a proper analysis of it so we end up just having the same argument about extra funding where there's barely any thought, minus some superficial reports, about what is actually needed.  Simply, it was this last year let's stick another X on top.  

You're probably right though.  It would seem common sense if we're aging we need more.  I don't know, I'm just putting my tuppence worth in from what I see with how budgets seem to be allocated.

folk shouting Austerity!!  what if we don't need to spend in certain areas.  It's all a bit politically calculated.  I don't spend the same every month because it's not needed.

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The NHS trusts and private run hospitals are part of the problem. Big money going Toma load of fat cats who run an area into the ground, go way over budget and then after a few years turn round and say they can't cope then the gov has to step in and bail out the hospitals such as what happened where I stay with circle heath. There is also the matter of post hospital care funding being slashed meaning it is taking longer for folk to be able to leave hospital because there is not the care for them so they end up blocking beds which in turn means operations get canceled due to a lack of beds for recovery. This also causes a bottleneck in a and e as those who need admitted can't thus taking up a had e beds which leads to longer waits for those in a and e. If you are going to put money to anywhere put it to the social care sector so folk have the help in place so they can leave hospital

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On 10 February 2017 at 11:57 AM, Bristolhibby said:

Pay more I meant. 

Its like stamping on an Opera singers throat then wondering why she can't sing anymore. Efficiencies will only scratch the surface, (not saying that they shouldn't be chased at every opportunity). But the system is chronically underfunded, people live longer, survive things that would have killed them 50 years ago, and the treatments are more complex and expensive as medicine moves forward.

Not to mention research funding, that should be just as important as front line treatment. Cures for Cancer, heart disease, gene therapy, don't just happen.

If that meant a percentage increase in taxes, so be it. Otherwise we will all see our friends and family be failed and suffer at the time they need the NHS most.

J

Sadly, no matter how much extra tax everyone paid, it would never be enough.

When the NHS was set up things were so much simpler - people didn't live as long and the range of treatments on offer was very limited in comparison to what can be done today - you basically went into hospital to get patched up or die (no huge range of expensive drugs and medical equipment). On top of this you have an obesity epidemic with all the health complications that entails.

Depressingly, I don't know what the answer is. It would help if people took a bit more individual responsibility e.g. stop smoking, eat a healthier diet, drink only in moderation and take some exercise, but I certainly wouldn't want to go down the road of refusing someone treatment on the basis of their lifestyle (once you start down that road, where do you stop?).

Edited by Regenmann
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17 hours ago, Regenmann said:

Sadly, no matter how much extra tax everyone paid, it would never be enough.

When the NHS was set up things were so much simpler - people didn't live as long and the range of treatments on offer was very limited in comparison to what can be done today - you basically went into hospital to get patched up or die (no huge range of expensive drugs and medical equipment). On top of this you have an obesity epidemic with all the health complications that entails.

Depressingly, I don't know what the answer is. It would help if people took a bit more individual responsibility e.g. stop smoking, eat a healthier diet, drink only in moderation and take some exercise, but I certainly wouldn't want to go down the road of refusing someone treatment on the basis of their lifestyle (once you start down that road, where do you stop?).

I would agree with most of that and, like you, I do not know what the answer is. You touch on the subject of expensive drugs and equipment,  the profiteering from pharmaceutical companies is something that truly gets my goat. I recognise that investors in new drugs often take risks with their money and that they expect a decent return from the succesful drugs,  however there is something fundamentally and ethically wrong with the obscene profits that are made from medicines and vaccines that are needed to keep people alive or to even just have a reasonable life. Not to say the divide that is created between those who can, and cannot, afford the more expensive drugs.

As a banker I would say there are few industries that currently rank below us but the pharmaceutical industry must be there or thereabouts. 

 

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17 hours ago, Regenmann said:

Sadly, no matter how much extra tax everyone paid, it would never be enough.

When the NHS was set up things were so much simpler - people didn't live as long and the range of treatments on offer was very limited in comparison to what can be done today - you basically went into hospital to get patched up or die (no huge range of expensive drugs and medical equipment). On top of this you have an obesity epidemic with all the health complications that entails.

Depressingly, I don't know what the answer is. It would help if people took a bit more individual responsibility e.g. stop smoking, eat a healthier diet, drink only in moderation and take some exercise, but I certainly wouldn't want to go down the road of refusing someone treatment on the basis of their lifestyle (once you start down that road, where do you stop?).

Folk who constantly whinge on aboot paying a wee bit more tax should should be sent to the back of the queue.;)

 

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It's all about choices

We choose to spend billions on Nuclear Weapons

We choose to spend billions bailing out banks

We choose to privatise energy and pharmaceutical companies meaning someone makes a profit over life necessities

We choose to have things like reaper drones (£28 million) and Hellfire missiles (£70,000 a pop)

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24 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Privatise pharma companies? When did we do that?

We choose to have profit hungry drug companies determining our health care priorities rather than the NHS

Nationalising the drug industry is not a new concept

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On 10/02/2017 at 8:23 AM, Bristolhibby said:

Fact of the matter is, if we want a modern effective NHS, we will have to pay for it through taxes. The clues in the name, a Service. Good Services cost money.

No point skirting around the issue. And any party of low taxation are lying.

We need a government with the balls to tackle the industrial scale tax evasion which is starving services like the NHS of cash. Tories and UKIP will not go for the super rich. A GP in Dorset is already charging £45 just to have an appointment.

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18 minutes ago, andymac said:

My private healthcare was taxed as a benefit in kind so I doubt it.

I dont pay subs, I have private medical cover like you through my work which is taxed as a benefit in kind. I have only ever used it once.  for  my daughters feet. The most expensive veruccas in history. There is not a lot of guilt associated with skipping the verucca queue ...

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8 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

We choose to have profit hungry drug companies determining our health care priorities rather than the NHS

Nationalising the drug industry is not a new concept

So, we haven't actually privatised them then?

Our NHS drug policy is largely determined by NICE and SMC, which I would guess you already know. If you're unaware of that basic information then you might not fully understand how Pharma companies work. Some of them make huge profits, some of them barely get by and some of them go bust. Just like in any other branch of industry. 

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