Toepoke Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, DonnyTJS said: On the plus side, religion has been at the root of some of the greatest art - figurative, literary, musical - that has ever been created. Agreed. Architecture too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 26 minutes ago, Parklife said: But surely you either heed what the bible says and go with it all, or believe none of it? After all, if it is all God's word, then who are we to only listen to some of it? Having been brought up by a very Kirk-ish family in my experience the Bible is cherrypicked by ministers when deciding on the direction of their praise on any particular Sunday. I would say the vast majority of Church of Scotland congregation members do not believe in creationism for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I also wonder about the books that were left out of the modern Bible. Those who decided on what books to put in and what to leave out could easily have had there own agenda. The book reported to have been written by Mary Magdalene is one I would like to have seen As to the stories part one of the problems is people take some things in the Bible too litraly and then use that as an excuse to ridicule. The part about god creating man in his image is one that springs to mind straight away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 52 minutes ago, Toepoke said: Agreed. Architecture too. Yeah but that's more a case of having shitloads of money to throw at projects rather than some religious faith driven exercise. Shitloads of money that would have been better spent on the poor rather than obscene structures to worship in the glory of their gods. Think Scotty would probably agree with me on that one    Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 20 minutes ago, Eisegerwind said: Yeah but that's more a case of having shitloads of money to throw at projects rather than some religious faith driven exercise. Shitloads of money that would have been better spent on the poor rather than obscene structures to worship in the glory of their gods. Think Scotty would probably agree with me on that one    Though religion has also been responsible for the destruction of a significant amount of architecture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) People do the crimes. Let's not shift the blame to something abstract. There are no crimes as long as there are no people. Edited February 21, 2017 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLAS Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 hours ago, sbcmfc said: That's why I read Thomas the tank. Just don't have one or it's purgatory for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 56 minutes ago, OLAS said: Just don't have one or it's purgatory for you!  Oh shiiiit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, OLAS said: Just don't have one or it's purgatory for you! Purgatory, an eternity with nothing to do but read posts from Scotty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 7 hours ago, DonnyTJS said: On the plus side, religion has been at the root of some of the greatest art - figurative, literary, musical - that has ever been created. I've just been reading Eliot's Four Quartets for the umpteenth time. It's an incredible piece of work, and shot through with a profound faith. The best English poetry of the last hundred years. As an aside there is no reason to believe that there would not have been great art if there was no religion. Most of the workshy poets, artists & composers needed money and guess who had it in shedloads ? Thats why there is so much of an overtone between lots of art and religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said: Â Thats why there is so much of an overtone between lots of art and religion Plus art allowed you (and the "church") to see naked women.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumnio Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4245904/Mom-shares-heartbreaking-image-cancer-stricken-son.html God, what a nice guy eh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: As an aside there is no reason to believe that there would not have been great art if there was no religion. Most of the workshy poets, artists & composers needed money and guess who had it in shedloads ? Thats why there is so much of an overtone between lots of art and religion Where did I suggest any of that? I never mentioned the faith or otherwise of the artists themselves apart from Eliot - or are you claiming he wrote Four Quartets for the brass? I said "religion has been at the root of [...] some of the greatest art ever created", that is, whether as sponsor or through direct faith-based inspiration. Nor did I say that there would have been no great art if there were no religion - there is plenty of great secular art. Edited February 21, 2017 by DonnyTJS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 56 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: Where did I suggest any of that? Â 4 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: As an aside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:  Ah, there was me thinking your comment was an aside from the great 'Bible-believing Christian / God gives kids cancer' debate and you were turning your ire on my humble proffering of faith-based aesthetics. My error. Apologies. Incidentally, picking up on Toepoke's point about architecture and others' response regarding the cost ... I suspect most folk, whatever their metaphysical convictions, find the great cathedrals awe-inspiring and, especially when a choir is giving it full chat, even uplifting to some extent - and that effect cost a huge amount, but it should also be remembered that prior to the welfare state, those with no other means of support had to find their relief through charity, and most charities over the past centuries were religious in nature. Indeed, in Islam it is one of the pillars of the faith to make a tithe to the poor. It's not like all the great wealth of the religious went on the construction of fan-vaulting and spires (or paedophile rings for that matter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 This is true - however it shouldnt be understated that whilst there have been some good things about religions the scales are weighted towards the bad. The prohibition of contraceptives and the disempowerment of women in the third world enhancing poverty & disease being one of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: This is true - however it shouldnt be understated that whilst there have been some good things about religions the scales are weighted towards the bad. The prohibition of contraceptives and the disempowerment of women in the third world enhancing poverty & disease being one of them I'm not sure that it's possible to suggest a balance between 'good' and 'bad' in that sense - it's a discussion that could go on for ever. The abolition of slavery was motivated by religious ideals while the prohibition of contraception is not an issue with most religions, and the disempowerment of women is more a social than a religious issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: I'm not sure that it's possible to suggest a balance between 'good' and 'bad' in that sense - it's a discussion that could go on for ever. The abolition of slavery was motivated by religious ideals while the prohibition of contraception is not an issue with most religions, and the disempowerment of women is more a social than a religious issue. Slavery was motivated by religious ideals And whilst prohibition of contraception is not part of all religions you have to take account that 33% of the Global Population are Christians and Roman Catholicism makes up half that number. I disagree with the last bit regarding disempowerment of women as it's been a major part of all Abrahamic religions for yonks http://www.persepolis.nu/queens-discrimination.htm    Edited February 21, 2017 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 38 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Slavery was motivated by religious ideals   Certainly enabled, not sure about motivated. After all, slavery was a thing long before the big book religions came on the scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, Dave78 said: Certainly enabled, not sure about motivated. After all, slavery was a thing long before the big book religions came on the scene. Yup, Noah's curse of Ham was used as a justification for slavery within Christendom but as you say it was used in all societies in pre-Christian times; and women weren't notably more 'empowered' in societies untouched by the Abrahamic religions. Any road, no point in continuing with religious ping pong - folk feel the need to polarize a phenomenon that is neither 'good' nor 'bad' in itself but has motivated actions that fall into both camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 17 hours ago, Parklife said: Of course it'll bother people. In the same way any false accusation or comment on someones character will bother folk, being told "you're going to hell" will bother people. It's not a false accusation or false comment on a person's character, though. It's more of a warning (like on a cigarette package) which folk rarely heed. 17 hours ago, Parklife said: And if there was no sin, there would be no cancer. So good is punishing innocent children for the sins of others? Sounds like a swell guy  Again... No. Cancer isn't punishment. It's a consequence. (In footballing terms, think Rangers. Liquidation wasn't a punishment, it was a consequence.) 17 hours ago, Parklife said: Sweet deal. I can see why loads of convicts find faith. Prison isn't a sweet deal. (It's hardly a career plan.) 18 hours ago, Parklife said: Do what you want then have faith in Jesus... Sam Kinison (who has preached from the pulpit) decided that he would live as he wanted but would repent just before he died. I don't know if he got the chance because he was hit head-on by a drunk driver and died within minutes. (It probably isn't advisable setting out to try and outsmart God.) 18 hours ago, Parklife said: ...you don't have to feel so bad about it... My 1% biker friends at church regret their crimes. 18 hours ago, Parklife said:  ...and can go to heaven.  Anyone can go to heaven. 18 hours ago, Parklife said: Meanwhile, folk who haven't killed anyone or raped kids or performed other abhorrent goes to hell. One half of one sin is enough to separate us from God forever. (It doesn't even have to be the things you've listed. It could be as simple as telling a lie, or having lust or hatred in your heart.) Only sinless people get into heaven... which eliminates all of us (so how's it done?) By humbling ourselves and admitting that we are sinners in need of a saviour. When we genuinely accept that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has paid for our sins, then we become 'justified' and from that point nothing can pluck you from God's hand. 18 hours ago, Parklife said: Sounds like a shockingly poorly reasoned, rational and equitable codes of ethics...   Just, fair, and flawless. 18 hours ago, Parklife said: But i guess that's what will happen if you live your life by the words in a book that's thousands of years old. As valid today as the day it was written. 18 hours ago, Parklife said: I'm a very nice person but i'm afraid i find some of the things you say pretty unpleasant. If you'd said these things to me in person, i'd have given you the same response. No you wouldn't, Blair. (No one there would believe that either.) (Very disappointing.) As you know, I basically lost the last year due to the person I loved the most in life having terminal cancer. I was the sole care-giver. I saw it all up close. The tumour bigger than a basketball, the pain, the blood, the vomiting, the diarrhea... The thought of blaming and hating God never even entered our heads. In fact, we looked to Him to take us through the trial, and neither of us could have done it without Him. Our love for Him (and each other) only increased. I remain very grateful for the privilege of experiencing the example of my Mother's tremendous strength, dignity, and faith throughout. There's nothing fun about having to say good-bye to a loved one (especially if they die slowly, or young, or unexpectedly). I know that. I just want you to know that I've been there too.    Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 19 hours ago, Orraloon said: Are you sure about that?  19 hours ago, Orraloon said: Are you sure about that? Good ones! 18 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said: Throughout mankind's history look at the hundreds of wars and religion is behind a lot of them. The world we live in now is haunted by terrorism fired by religion. That's just something that gets repeated by parrots that don't know what they are saying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll 18 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said: If you had no religion the world would be a far better, safer place. Agreed. 17 hours ago, Och Aye said: Religion is man made. Anything that's man made is done for money and power.  I hate religion but think wars would happen with or without it, the powerful people would have blonde people going to war with brunettes if it fitted their agenda. Correct on all counts! 16 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: I actually get a few 'customers', but yeah, folk don't like to hear what they don't want to accept. (Thon 'Comforting Lies' sign could just as easily say 'Cognitive Dissonance'.) 16 hours ago, Larky Masher said: This thread seems to have given Scotty the pulpit he wanted. I've been posting for yonks. Just trying to keep it one place.   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Scotty CTA said: Again... No. Cancer isn't punishment. It's a consequence. (In footballing terms, think Rangers. Liquidation wasn't a punishment, it was a consequence.) So innocent children are given cancer as a consequence of the sins of others? 3 hours ago, Scotty CTA said: Sam Kinison (who has preached from the pulpit) decided that he would live as he wanted but would repent just before he died. I don't know if he got the chance because he was hit head-on by a drunk driver and died within minutes. (It probably isn't advisable setting out to try and outsmart God.) I'm sure he had enough time in those few minutes to find God  3 hours ago, Scotty CTA said: Anyone can go to heaven. I'd rather stay away from it in that case. 3 hours ago, Scotty CTA said: No you wouldn't, Blair. (No one there would believe that either.) (Very disappointing.) I really, really would have. I've quite a low tolerance for folk who tell me evil acts and tremendous suffering are part of God's plan or are a consequence of sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 4 hours ago, Scotty CTA said: Â Â I've been posting shite for yonks. Just trying to keep it one place. Â Â Amen to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillinger Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) As Stephen Fry says, even if I could believe God is real, who the feck would want anything to do with him? If you take it as read that he's real, then you take it as read that he allows innocent children to have cancer and die in horrible pain. Who the f.uck would actually want anything to do with that c.unt? Edited February 22, 2017 by Dillinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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