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Thoughts and Questions About God


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8 hours ago, Dave78 said:

Certainly enabled, not sure about motivated. After all, slavery was a thing long before the big book religions came on the scene.

Religion has existed for at least as long as slavery

The oldest Religious text we know of is 3500 years old but there were Religions way prior to that

Slavery began some time after we stopped being hunter gatherers and learned about agriculture.

So did religion once our superstitions took hold in a large audience

8 hours ago, DonnyTJS said:

Yup, Noah's curse of Ham was used as a justification for slavery within Christendom but as you say it was used in all societies in pre-Christian times; and women weren't notably more 'empowered' in societies untouched by the Abrahamic religions. Any road, no point in continuing with religious ping pong - folk feel the need to polarize a phenomenon that is neither 'good' nor 'bad' in itself but has motivated actions that fall into both camps.

As above - there were other religions before christianity

However i agree with the ping pong

 

Just wanted to get the last word in :)

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12 hours ago, DonnyTJS said:

I'm not sure that it's possible to suggest a balance between 'good' and 'bad' in that sense - it's a discussion that could go on for ever. The abolition of slavery was motivated by religious ideals while the prohibition of contraception is not an issue with most religions, and the disempowerment of women is more a social than a religious issue.

For some reason I think the disempowerment of women lines up with realising that males played a part in the creation of babies. I cannot remember where i got this "knowledge" from though, which makes me suspect it greatly.

 

EDIT: a quick google search seems to confirm that " reproductive consciousness" existed tens of thousands of years ago. So the above is even more likely to be claptrap.

Interesting read: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2013/01/when_did_humans_realize_sex_makes_babies_evolution_of_reproductive_consciousness.html

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For me one of the biggest problems with religion is the head priest/inam/Dalai lama etc. The people at the time might have thought they were putting the right person in the position but it is all to easy to promote the wrong person who then adjusts the religion to there design. The Pope is a prime example. Many atrocities have been committed due to his orders but then you have the new pope who seems to be more humble and liberal in his thinking

Going back to my post about the books missed out from the modern Bible what about other religions? How easy would it have been to slowly drop passages from the quran or the Torah or going farther back to when it was oral teaching it would have been even easier to change

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On ‎18‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 5:03 PM, Scotty CTA said:

The only possible explanation for the human experience would be by special creation by an eternal omnipotent entity existing outside of time.

That is a "god of the gaps" argument right there. Just because you or I understand it doesn't mean it must have been god who did. People living in hunter gatherer societies would have had no idea where thunder and lightning came from. It would have been indistinguishable from magic and put down to the will of a deity.

 

Even if one were to agree with your statement, it still cannot in anyway back up any of the dogma of Christian belief. If we accept that only a eternal omnipotent entity could have created the universe, can you point out to me how that leads to belief in a deity that cares about what we eat, who we sleep with, how we sleep them and whether we worship him or not when no proof exists for any of this save a collection of books written by fallible men in Bronze Age Palestine who knew nothing of modern scientific learning?

 

On ‎18‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 7:12 PM, Scotty CTA said:

Science' pretends to have all the answers.

Eh no it doesn't, the very opposite in fact. Scientists would agree that once we answer one question we are faced with a multitude more questions that we have no answer to and that what we do know is massively outweighed by what we do not know. Scientists are also fully prepared to change their mind on any issue once conclusive evidence is presented. In light of all that I am really baffled why feel science pretends to have all the answers? A lot of people who don't believe in any deity (myself included) would not that 100% god does not exist as it is impossible, but merely on the evidence that is available, it overwhelmingly points to the likelihood that god does not exist. Remember the burden of proof is on those claiming that there is a supernatural being in the sky who has created and judges us all of us and not one scintilla of proof has ever been provided in support if this.

 

 

A few of my own thoughts as regards Christianity.

 

1) Hell

Human beings have been given free will and only those that willfully separate themselves from god are destined for eternal damnation. So on the day I die I will be condemned to a eternity of torment despite the fact that I may have cared for the sick ill and marginalsed my whole and generally led nothing but a pure and wholesome. I could even never once have broken any of god's commandments. Yet the person who has raped, murdered and generally led an utterly evil life but has "seen the error" of his ways and has accepted Jesus Christ into his heart is going to be rewarded with a lifetime in paradise. This to me seems completely at odds with any concept of justice. Even if one were to accept that I deserve to be damned, surely an ETERNITY of torment is ridiculously excessive. And what exactly is the heinous crime I have committed? I have not worshipped and "feared" god. Now remember this is the same god who has endowed me with my intellect and reason and knew how I would employ them before I was even born. I am to be punished because I employed these gifts that he gave me and came to the conclusion that he did not exist based on the total lack of evidence. That is not malicious, that was simply me using the gifts he has given me and coming to an erroneous conclusion, a conclusion he could have had me avoid by revealing himself to me. Seriously like, what sort of a lunatic and ego maniac is this guy? If he was truly loving and compassionate he would forgive all sinners and admit everyone to heaven, including those of us who do no worship and actively separate ourselves from him, it is within his power as he is all powerful but he chooses not to.

2) Original Sin

We live in world with horrible illness, war, suffering, etc because of Original Sin. We are all born sinners. Examples have been given of children dying of cancer as a consequence of living in a fallen world. North Korea employs a similar system though not as harsh. If you are seen as an enemy of the regime not only are you punished but 3 previous generations are punished. They have nothing on god, who allows young children and other innocents to suffer because of the sins of Adam and Eve. What sort of morality is that? If one of my parents commits a crime I presume the vast majority of people would find it outrageous if I was sent to jail because of their actions. Yet this is exactly the policy that god follows.

There is one caveat though. God sent his only son (who is also himself) to earth to die a horrible gruesome death to redeem our sins once we accept Jesus Christ (who once again is his own father!) into our hearts as our lord and saviour. Now this doesn't remove our sins, the world is still fallen and human beings are still sinful but a human sacrifice heals all. So even though the world hasn't been made any better by this horrific sacrifice, it is evidence of god's mercy and god's love for us. All this despite it being within god's power to simply just forgive us our sins. For some reason he chooses the human sacrifice by way of being tortured to death route and salvation is only for those who see this as a good thing and believe that this person is the son of god.

I'd like to know what happens to those who were born before Jesus came to save us all? They all have the stain or Original Sin too except they had no human sacrifice committed on their behalf to save them from the hellfire. Did god simply not care about these people? I like a line of thought Christopher Hitchens uses. Say human beings have existed at the lower end of the estimated scale for approximately 100,000 years. That means that for 98,000 years god stands idly by, arms folded watching humanity's suffering and the suffering it inflicts upon itself. Then around 2,000 years he decides to himself, this won't do and sends himself in the guise of his only son to Earth to spread the good news and redeem all of our sins. Where does he choose to this? Not Rome or China or other sophisticated, literate societies. No he chooses the deserts of the Middle East and reveals himself to shepherds and fishermen. Sure they'll let the rest of the world know the good news in no time at all. Seems perfectly legit to me! It just took the lads living in the Americas another 1500 years to hear it, at the tip of a Spanish sword.

There is lots more horrendous and crazy stuff in this cult.

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Anyway enough about the God / Myth of the old Testament - what about the Jesus / Myth of the new Testament - is there any evidence (archaeological or otherwise) that he actually existed ?

If he was the son of God sent to save us from our sins, there is far more sin, torture & pain this past century than there has ever been, why didn't he come now, where mankind has camera's - video's etc, then there would be no doubt & we'd all be believers.

Sorry, I just don't buy it at all - made up by Iron-age scribes, merely tales / propaganda of their times.

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On 2/22/2017 at 2:58 AM, Parklife said:

So innocent children are given cancer...

Once again... I don't know how people get cancer. (I don't think anyone knows.)

On 2/22/2017 at 2:58 AM, Parklife said:

...as a consequence of the sins of others? 

All sin is a result of the sin of Adam.

On 2/22/2017 at 2:58 AM, Parklife said:

I'm sure he had enough time in those few minutes to find God :ok: 

It's possible. (He had a history/head start.)

It's not a matter of saying 'Abracadabra' though.

He would have had to change his heart, and Jesus would have had to have known him in a relationship.

Wiki records an account of him dying...

Kinison was found lying between the seats of his car at the scene of the collision. He was not killed instantly, according to his brother.

His brother and the others begged him to lie down and he did with his best friend, Carl LaBove, who had been in the following van, holding his head in his hands. At first it looked like Kinison had suffered no serious injuries, but within minutes he suddenly said to no one in particular, "I don’t want to die. I don’t want to die." LaBove later said, "it was as if he was having a conversation, talking to someone else, some unseen person." Then there was a pause as if Kinison was listening to the other person speak. Then he asked "But why?" and after another pause LaBove heard him clearly say: "Okay, okay, okay.’ LaBove said, "The last ‘okay’ was so soft and at peace.... Whatever voice was talking to him gave him the right answer and he just relaxed with it. He said it so sweet, like he was talking to someone he loved." Kinison then lost consciousness. Efforts to resuscitate him failed. Kinison died at the scene from internal injuries. An autopsy found that he had suffered numerous traumatic injuries—including a dislocated neck, a torn aorta, and torn blood vessels in his abdominal cavity—which caused his death within minutes of the collision.

On 2/22/2017 at 2:58 AM, Parklife said:

I'd rather stay away from it in that case. 

The free gift of salvation is available to everyone.

Once a believer dies, they become Christ-like.

No one will have any complaints in heaven.

Just sheer unending joy.

On 2/22/2017 at 2:58 AM, Parklife said:

I really, really would have.

To what end?

What do you feel there would have been to accomplish?

On 2/22/2017 at 2:58 AM, Parklife said:

I've quite a low tolerance for folk who tell me... 

Well... work on it.

Take on a thicker skin.

On 2/22/2017 at 2:58 AM, Parklife said:

...evil acts and tremendous suffering are part of God's plan or are a consequence of sin

Both true.

Jesus came to save us from ourselves.

He wasn't crushed on the cross. He DID the crushing.

He defeated death and the grave.

Sin will be dealt with. 

No one will get away with anything.

Temporary earthly suffering is a price a believer would gladly pay to be in eternity with God.

(Your thoughts aren't God's thoughts. Your ways aren't God's ways.)

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10 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said:

Once again... I don't know how people get cancer. (I don't think anyone knows.)

 

Your post above is utter nonsense but lets focus on cancer

It's all to do with the cell cycle of the body and the human growth hormone

You'll have heard the phrase that we start dying as soon as we are born ?

What the body needs to survive is what ages us and eventually kills us.

Think of the body as a furnace and oxygen and nourishment as it's fuel

Every time you breathe in air or eat/drink something it fuels up the furnace - old cells die and new ones replace them

Your body is constantly replacing old cells with new ones at the rate of millions per second

Sometimes these replacement cells become abnormal and this is what we refer to as cancer

Scientists discovered a while back the connection between the human growth hormone and cancers

If you are lucky enough to avoid abnormal cells becoming cancerous then your demise will depend on the strength of your heart and your brain faculties

 

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Edit - it's the IGF-1 hormone - not to be confused with HGH

So thats the paradox - if you dont breathe, eat, drink or grow up you wont get cancer

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2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Your post above is utter nonsense but lets focus on cancer

OK... Please enlighten the class.

Why do some people get cancer and others don't?

(What's the criteria?)

2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Sometimes these replacement cells become abnormal and this is what we refer to as cancer

Why?

2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

If you are lucky enough to avoid abnormal cells becoming cancerous then...

Lucky enough?

2 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Priests still kids and the church still covers it up. Religion? No thanks. 

I've said that over 100 times on here. 

(What's your point?)

 

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On 2/23/2017 at 10:46 AM, glasgow jock said:

Anyway enough about the God / Myth of the old Testament - what about the Jesus / Myth of the new Testament - is there any evidence (archaeological or otherwise) that he actually existed ?

Question: "Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?"

Answer: 
Typically, when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with “outside of the Bible.” We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.

Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

 

On 2/23/2017 at 10:46 AM, glasgow jock said:

If he was the son of God sent to save us from our sins, there is far more sin, torture & pain this past century than there has ever been...

Jesus came two thousand years ago to make a way for sinful individuals to be forgiven of their INDIVIDUAL  sin.

Jesus didn't come to eliminate sin. (He came to eliminate the PENALTY for sin.)

Jesus didn't come to solve the world's problems.

Sin will be allowed to play out to it's conclusion of near ultimate destruction.

(Man's continual defiant rebellious foolish heart toward God will ensure that.)

On 2/23/2017 at 10:46 AM, glasgow jock said:

...why didn't he come now, where mankind has camera's - video's etc, then there would be no doubt & we'd all be believers.

We learn about God (the Father) by learning about Jesus (God the Son).

And we learn about Jesus by studying the Bible.

We can ONLY be saved by FAITH (and faith comes from knowing the Word).

God loves us too much to eliminate the means by which we are saved.

On 2/23/2017 at 10:46 AM, glasgow jock said:

Sorry, I just don't buy it at all...

You don't understand it (yet).

(Keep following along.)

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But 'proof' isn't really the point (Scotty doesn't seem to get this either due to his need to defend the Genesis creation narrative as reality rather than a mythic account - hence his attempts to refute all evidence that runs counter to this).

If the existence of God were provable, then that negates 'free will'. The argument is that people are free to accept or reject God, and who's going to reject a God that has been proved to exist if it means spending eternity in the fires of hell, getting pitchforked in the vitals by satan and all his little wizards?

We are unable to apply objective criteria of proof to anything that exists outside time and space. As for the historical Jesus. I think the chances are there was such a person, for the simple reason that the Christian sect sprang from nowhere and had to start with something. Whether he was God Incarnate rather than an inspirational teacher is another matter altogether.

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6 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

OK... Please enlighten the class.

Why do some people get cancer and others don't?

(What's the criteria?)

Why?

Lucky enough?

I've said that over 100 times on here. 

(What's your point?)

 

Deep down you know this answer

Think

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 25/02/2017 at 4:47 AM, DonnyTJS said:

But 'proof' isn't really the point (Scotty doesn't seem to get this either due to his need to defend the Genesis creation narrative as reality rather than a mythic account - hence his attempts to refute all evidence that runs counter to this).

If the existence of God were provable, then that negates 'free will'. The argument is that people are free to accept or reject God, and who's going to reject a God that has been proved to exist if it means spending eternity in the fires of hell, getting pitchforked in the vitals by satan and all his little wizards?

We are unable to apply objective criteria of proof to anything that exists outside time and space. As for the historical Jesus. I think the chances are there was such a person, for the simple reason that the Christian sect sprang from nowhere and had to start with something. Whether he was God Incarnate rather than an inspirational teacher is another matter altogether.

Blackadder: Oh, fire, fire. Ah good. Right. So let's recap. Um... if I admit that I am in love...

Torturer: No! No!

Blackadder: Sorry, head over heels in love with Satan and all his little wizards, then you will remove my testicles with a blunt instrument...

Torturer: Una guadaña, una guadaña.

Blackadder: ...resembling some kind of gardening tool but we can't quite... um... and roast them over a large fire.

Torturer: Si, Si.

Blackadder: Whereas if I don't admit that I'm in love with Satan and... and... all his... his little wizards, y-you will hold me upside down in a vat of warm marmalade.

Torturer: Y!

Blackadder: And remove my testicles with a blunt... oh I see. Well, well, in that case, I love Satan.

I saw what you did there :lol:

Made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that.

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On 2/24/2017 at 11:48 PM, Scotty CTA said:

Once again... I don't know how people get cancer. (I don't think anyone knows.)

All sin is a result of the sin of Adam.

It's possible. (He had a history/head start.)

It's not a matter of saying 'Abracadabra' though.

He would have had to change his heart, and Jesus would have had to have known him in a relationship.

Wiki records an account of him dying...

Kinison was found lying between the seats of his car at the scene of the collision. He was not killed instantly, according to his brother.

His brother and the others begged him to lie down and he did with his best friend, Carl LaBove, who had been in the following van, holding his head in his hands. At first it looked like Kinison had suffered no serious injuries, but within minutes he suddenly said to no one in particular, "I don’t want to die. I don’t want to die." LaBove later said, "it was as if he was having a conversation, talking to someone else, some unseen person." Then there was a pause as if Kinison was listening to the other person speak. Then he asked "But why?" and after another pause LaBove heard him clearly say: "Okay, okay, okay.’ LaBove said, "The last ‘okay’ was so soft and at peace.... Whatever voice was talking to him gave him the right answer and he just relaxed with it. He said it so sweet, like he was talking to someone he loved." Kinison then lost consciousness. Efforts to resuscitate him failed. Kinison died at the scene from internal injuries. An autopsy found that he had suffered numerous traumatic injuries—including a dislocated neck, a torn aorta, and torn blood vessels in his abdominal cavity—which caused his death within minutes of the collision.

The free gift of salvation is available to everyone.

Once a believer dies, they become Christ-like.

No one will have any complaints in heaven.

Just sheer unending joy.

Belting bullshittery above. Kudos. :ok: 

On 2/24/2017 at 11:48 PM, Scotty CTA said:

To what end?

What do you feel there would have been to accomplish?

You'd maybe have thought twice about the way you espouse your views as you'll have seen how objectionable some people can find them. 

Anyway, this is a fictional scenario that didn't actually occur. 

On 2/24/2017 at 11:48 PM, Scotty CTA said:

Well... work on it.

Take on a thicker skin.

I have no need to "take on a thicker skin". I just do not surround myself with folk who come out with things i find objectionable. 

On 2/24/2017 at 11:48 PM, Scotty CTA said:

Both true.

Jesus came to save us from ourselves.

He wasn't crushed on the cross. He DID the crushing.

He defeated death and the grave.

Sin will be dealt with. 

No one will get away with anything.

Temporary earthly suffering is a price a believer would gladly pay to be in eternity with God.

(Your thoughts aren't God's thoughts. Your ways aren't God's ways.)

:lol: You actually believe this bullshit. 

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