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Ormond

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Fourth successive Euro finals. Kind of tells you that our laddies aren't being given a chance to break into the big team when the time comes setting them behind all the rest who throw skilled youngsters into the team. Usually down to the dinosaurs in our game that play on the 'too wee' or 'not old enough' nonsense. 

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12 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Fourth successive Euro finals. Kind of tells you that our laddies aren't being given a chance to break into the big team when the time comes setting them behind all the rest who throw skilled youngsters into the team. Usually down to the dinosaurs in our game that play on the 'too wee' or 'not old enough' nonsense. 

Fair point.

Wales (who are much better than us) with Ben Woodburn and Harry Wilson in their senior squad with a combined age of 36 and 7 club appearances between them.

Cant imagine us ever capping a promising 16 or 17 year old. 

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19 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Fourth successive Euro finals. Kind of tells you that our laddies aren't being given a chance to break into the big team when the time comes setting them behind all the rest who throw skilled youngsters into the team. Usually down to the dinosaurs in our game that play on the 'too wee' or 'not old enough' nonsense. 

Something for Malky to sort out. There is obviously talent there but will they still be there in 4 years or so?

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Just now, GHfaeGTA said:

Something for Malky to sort out. There is obviously talent there but will they still be there in 4 years or so?

The talent has obviously been there for years and years but as usual in Scotland it's being stifled.

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26 minutes ago, adamntg said:

16/18 team league.  Maximum of 18 over 21s to be used in a season.  Easy. 

Gentleman's agreement on limiting non-Scottish qualified players in squad. (Not sure how I feel about that)

Take that sensible head off please? It's Scottish football you follow!

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Mentioned this on another post, but Regen touched on this with his Project Brave talk at Supporters Direct at Hampden last Sunday.

At U17 level we are ranked number 5 in UEFA and seem to be able to go toe to toe with the best of Europe..... seems to be a dip in form somewhere between there and U21 level (the U21's not being able to compete seems to worry them more than the actual main team) and this is what they need to address.

A lot of the stuff he said seemed to be going in the right direction...... at the moment we have something like 25 performance schools, which for a population of 5 million, when you compare it to Germany, they only have 50 across the whole country, so they plan to cut them down to 16 for Scotland.

Also they are changing the format of the Scottish Youth Cup so that it will be played over the summer, so the kids are getting all year round football.

These are things within the SFA control, but the real work is with what the clubs do.

Regan wants to see the larger clubs sending more of their youth team players out on loan so it takes them out of their comfort zone of kids v kids (even into the Junior league, not just the current league set up), and also they are pushing for Colt Teams in the Scottish league.

To try get the clubs around to it they are going to start a performance table where the team who finishes top gets rewarded in some form (he showed the current table and Celtic were miles ahead of everyone else).

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This issue of Colt teams rears it's head fairly often and I think it's fair to say it is met with a more than mixed response. The concept of Celtic A and Rangers A plus a few other of the 'big' teams taking league places in the lower leagues and hoovering up any even vaguely talented players to fill those teams is definitely a real possibility.

 

In my opinion it is a non-starter, but perhaps a bit of innovative thinking from the SFA could help. What I would like to see is a few centrally manged SFA run youth teams competing in the league structure. These teams, which could be affiliated to particular clubs and performance schools, would take on a roster of U21 players each season to form their squad. The SFA would be able to ensure these players are all qualified for Scotland, and that they have access to the highest quality of training and facilities. They would also be able to set the team up the 'SFA' way, which I believe is currently enforced right through the age-grade squads. I think this way of dealing with the loan issue would help ensure fairness in the league, would keep all clubs on-side, and wouldn't further reinforce the dominance of the current biggest clubs.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of issues with this particular idea, but for me it is at least worth exploring.

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15 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

This issue of Colt teams rears it's head fairly often and I think it's fair to say it is met with a more than mixed response. The concept of Celtic A and Rangers A plus a few other of the 'big' teams taking league places in the lower leagues and hoovering up any even vaguely talented players to fill those teams is definitely a real possibility.

 

In my opinion it is a non-starter, but perhaps a bit of innovative thinking from the SFA could help. What I would like to see is a few centrally manged SFA run youth teams competing in the league structure. These teams, which could be affiliated to particular clubs and performance schools, would take on a roster of U21 players each season to form their squad. The SFA would be able to ensure these players are all qualified for Scotland, and that they have access to the highest quality of training and facilities. They would also be able to set the team up the 'SFA' way, which I believe is currently enforced right through the age-grade squads. I think this way of dealing with the loan issue would help ensure fairness in the league, would keep all clubs on-side, and wouldn't further reinforce the dominance of the current biggest clubs.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of issues with this particular idea, but for me it is at least worth exploring.

Disagree. Celtic, Rangers and to a lesser extent, Hearts and Aberdeen produce the bulk of the players who make up the most talented youngsters in the country. The Colt teams are an idea to get those boys playing against senior players week in week out.

In terms of benefiting the national team, there are no negative points to them.

In terms of the fans of Montrose and Elgin City, they are met with opposition, for obvious reasons.

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I agree that the bulk of players come from those teams, that is demonstrably true. I think the conflict with some fans is in the idea of the current Championship becoming a glorified 'A' league (one that I wouldn't necessarily agree with myself, but I recognise the concern that others have). For others, the issue is that certain teams will be allowed a Colt team, where other won't - this is potentially unfair. Another issue that some fans have is that this will encourage the stockpiling of young players from the lower leagues that show any potential at all - especially given the vast (far more so than other league systems) disparity in respective incomes and transfer market buying power. Yet another issue that some fans fear is that the league their team is in will be devalued by the team who wins it potentially being a Colt team - in the Championship this could lead to promotions for teams that finish some way down the league standings.

 

My point is that I recognise that the Colt idea is widely opposed by fans for various reasons with varying levels of validity. My idea is to try to ease these concerns with a different idea - whether or not you agree with the issues some fans have, I think we can all agree that Scottish football as a whole can barely afford to alienate more fans than it already has. I've suggested a different system which would in my opinion at least achieve the goals that you put forward in your post without the drawbacks many fans fear that I have detailed above.

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He did not go into great detail on the colt teams, but said that there would be at least 2 divisions between the teams (so realistically a team can get no higher than League 1).... could be wrong, but I am sure he even subtly hinted that even in the Junior and Highland Leagues it could be a option for them to be placed there.....

 

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4 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

I agree that the bulk of players come from those teams, that is demonstrably true. I think the conflict with some fans is in the idea of the current Championship becoming a glorified 'A' league (one that I wouldn't necessarily agree with myself, but I recognise the concern that others have). For others, the issue is that certain teams will be allowed a Colt team, where other won't - this is potentially unfair. Another issue that some fans have is that this will encourage the stockpiling of young players from the lower leagues that show any potential at all - especially given the vast (far more so than other league systems) disparity in respective incomes and transfer market buying power. Yet another issue that some fans fear is that the league their team is in will be devalued by the team who wins it potentially being a Colt team - in the Championship this could lead to promotions for teams that finish some way down the league standings.

 

My point is that I recognise that the Colt idea is widely opposed by fans for various reasons with varying levels of validity. My idea is to try to ease these concerns with a different idea - whether or not you agree with the issues some fans have, I think we can all agree that Scottish football as a whole can barely afford to alienate more fans than it already has. I've suggested a different system which would in my opinion at least achieve the goals that you put forward in your post without the drawbacks many fans fear that I have detailed above.

I don't see how this is something that doesn't already happen. If a young player looks promising playing for a small clubs youth team, a bigger club will snap him up.

It can work the other way round where a club develops a young player, like Celtic did with Andrew Robertson, releases him, a smaller club then develops him further with game time & He can still reach the top.

Colt teams playing in the senior leagues would improve the standard of our young Scottish players and never has it been more obvious that we need to address that.

Our under 17s are very good normally. Our under 19s and under 21s are usually mince. There's a reason for that and the issue that these boys get older yet the standard of each team stays the same every year speaks volumes for the lack of development for our young players once they are over 17.

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Just now, ProudScot said:

I don't see how this is something that doesn't already happen. If a young player looks promising playing for a small clubs youth team, a bigger club will snap him up.

It can work the other way round where a club develops a young player, like Celtic did with Andrew Robertson, releases him, a smaller club then develops him further with game time & He can still reach the top.

Colt teams playing in the senior leagues would improve the standard of our young Scottish players and never has it been more obvious that we need to address that.

Our under 17s are very good normally. Our under 19s and under 21s are usually mince. There's a reason for that and the issue that these boys get older yet the standard of each team stays the same every year speaks volumes for the lack of development for our young players once they are over 17.

As I've said in both of my posts, these concerns that some fans have might not be true and I don't necessarily share them, but Scottish football can't afford to disenfranchise any more fans. I'm not sure if you understand that I'm not trying to argue against Colt teams, I'm suggesting we should have them but that they should be run centrally by the SFA rather than by specific clubs. My idea is based on a model that is, for instance, extremely successful in Rugby. In the Rugby example it is actually a step further whereby the national associations actually centrally contracts the senior players and loans them to the senior clubs. I am not suggesting central contracts at all, but I do think there is value in a number of centrally manged/run Colt teams playing under SFA (i.e. Scotland) colours.

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I should add that the central Colt teams idea is much more beneficial for the senior team as specific problem areas for the full squad can be actively targeted. For instance, if we have a particularly talented young centre back we could ensure that he is given game time for one of the Colt teams, more or less regardless of performance, to ensure that he develops more quickly to fill the senior team problem position.

 

The club Colt teams idea might achieve the same result, but it might also result in us playing a series of non-Scottish qualified players, or players that will never make international players (but are currently better than the above example young centre back).

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1 hour ago, ProudScot said:

Disagree. Celtic, Rangers and to a lesser extent, Hearts and Aberdeen produce the bulk of the players who make up the most talented youngsters in the country. The Colt teams are an idea to get those boys playing against senior players week in week out.

In terms of benefiting the national team, there are no negative points to them.

In terms of the fans of Montrose and Elgin City, they are met with opposition, for obvious reasons.

2 Hearts players and 3 Aberdeen players out of 3 squads from U17-U21. You are spot on. See before spouting nonsense, at least kind of know what you are talking about. 

I could be wrong but after Celtic and Rangers, Killie have the highest number across those squads.

Scotland Under-17 squad

Goalkeepers

Josh Donaldson (Dundee United)
Jon McCracken (Norwich City) PS

Defenders

Stephen Welsh (Celtic)
Daniel Church (Celtic)
Robbie Deas (Celtic)
Jordan Houston (Rangers)
Lewis Mayo (Rangers) PS
Jonny Mitchell (Forth Valley) PS

Midfielders

Elliot Watt (Wolverhampton Wanderers)
Kerr McInroy (Celtic)
Seb Ross (Aberdeen) PS
Lewis Smith (Hamilton Academical)
Jack Thomson (Rangers)

Forwards

Jack Aitchison (Celtic)
Zak Rudden (Rangers) PS
Glenn Middleton (Norwich City)
Lewis Hutchison (Aberdeen)
Innes Cameron (Kilmarnock)

Scotland Under-19 squad

Goalkeepers

Robby McCrorie (Rangers)

Ross Doohan (Celtic)

Defenders

Anthony Ralston (Celtic)

Harry Souttar (Stoke City)

Ross McCrorie (Rangers - on loan to Dumbarton)

Tony Gallacher (Falkirk)

Ryan Porteous (Hibernian - on loan to Edinburgh City)

Daniel Harvie (Aberdeen - on loan to Dumbarton)

Midfielders

Liam Burt (Rangers)

Ethan Hamilton (Manchester United)

Mark Hill (Celtic)

Michael Johnston (Celtic)

Kevin O'Hara (Falkirk)

Scott Allardice (Dundee United)

Iain Wilson (Kilmarnock)

Forwards

Oliver Shaw (Hibernian - on loan to Stenhousemuir)

Theo Archibald (Celtic - on loan to Albion Rovers)

Fraser Preston (Sheffield Wednesday) 

Scotland Under-21 squad

Goalkeepers

Ryan Fulton (Liverpool, loan to Chesterfield)
Devlin Mackay (Kilmarnock, loan to Berwick Rangers)
Jack Ruddy (Wolverhampton Wanderers)

Defenders

Alex Iacovitti (Nottingham Forest)
Zak Jules (Reading, loan to Motherwell)
Jamie McCart (Celtic, loan to Inverness CT)
Jordan McGhee (Hearts, loan to Middlesbrough)
Liam Smith (Heart of Midlothian)
Greg Taylor (Kilmarnock)

Midfielders

Chris Cadden (Motherwell)
Liam Henderson (Celtic)    
Stephen Mallan (St Mirren)
James Jones (Crewe Alexandra)
Dominic Thomas (Motherwell, loan Queen of the South)
Ruben Sammut (Chelsea)
Joe Thomson (Celtic, loan to Queen of the South)

Forwards

Ryan Hardie (Rangers, loan to Raith Rovers)
Jack Harper (Málaga CF)    
Oliver McBurnie (Swansea City)
Paul McMullan (Celtic, loan to Dunfermline Athletic)
Lewis Morgan (St Mirren)
Craig Wighton (Dundee)    

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8 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Same old TAMB, not sure why I ever bother to be honest. Zero replies that actually in any meaningful way discuss my suggestion (even just to say its shite), just a bunch of disagreements about a tangential and more or less irrelevant side-issue.

Think your knickers are twisted.

You said something could be demonstrated as being true, all i did was correct you. 

Sorry for letting facts get in the way of discussion.

Edited by Squirrelhumper
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14 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Shocker Squirrelhumper gets offended about Kilmarnock...!

Majority of them come from rangers and Celtic, then the others come from the other teams.... happy now? ;)

Not offended, just stating facts. 

Get back to finding sh1te English players for us to call up "ProudScot" 

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16 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Not offended, just stating facts. 

Get back to finding sh1te English players for us to call up "ProudScot" 

You clearly are offended. 

Hows Greg Kiltie and Craig Slater getting on these days?

Glad to see Robbie Muirhead hit the dizzy heights you claimed he would. 

Cant wait to hear about the next big thing to come from Killie! 

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4 hours ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Same old TAMB, not sure why I ever bother to be honest. Zero replies that actually in any meaningful way discuss my suggestion (even just to say its shite), just a bunch of disagreements about a tangential and more or less irrelevant side-issue.

The central colt team is an excellent idea. Would be a great way to have our hopefully, future internationals playing weekly in competitive games. They would also develop partnerships and understanding by playing in the same team rather than opposing colt teams which could only serve well if they make it to the full team. I'm sure there are downsides and not sure how clubs would view it but surely worth a discussion.

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I think the opposition to colt teams is based primarily on identity - many fans of lower league clubs do not want Celtic A or Rangers A teams in their leagues.  I think we have to accept that and move the discussion on.  One way round this might be to base colt teams around regions rather than clubs.  Having 4 colt teams (eg Western Academy. Eastern Academy etc) with players drawn from clubs in those regions would fulfill the criteria set by the SFA and be respectful of the objections of fans of lower league sides. 

On a personal note I'd rather the colt teams be named slightly more romantically than just  Xxxx Academy, perhaps reviving long lost names like Third Lanark, St Bernards, Northern etc - but that's just me.

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12 hours ago, Paulo2576 said:

The central colt team is an excellent idea. Would be a great way to have our hopefully, future internationals playing weekly in competitive games. They would also develop partnerships and understanding by playing in the same team rather than opposing colt teams which could only serve well if they make it to the full team. I'm sure there are downsides and not sure how clubs would view it but surely worth a discussion.

Thanks Paulo, faith in TAMB restored!

 

I'm fairly sure there will be downsides too, but I've yet to think of any meaningful examples! I'm fairly sure some clubs will complain that there are too many players from xxx in the team (i.e. Celtic or Rangers etc.) or that preference is being given to lesser players from those teams, but you would think an independent manager (i.e. not a Celtic/Rangers/whoever youth coach) might alleviate that concern. Personally, if it didn't infringe too much on their core duties I would be tempted to have the Scotland youth team staff running the teams. It might also be worth limiting the number of loanees from each team.

It might also be easier to get exile youth players on loan to a team like this as the loan could be incredibly bespoke. With no danger of the manager losing their job, you could guarantee lonee x games in the season for entirely development purposes.

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