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Billy Gilmour


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2 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Hopefully less of a bellend than Feruz and he might have a chance of making it 

I'm not sure anyone has a chance at Chelsea.. who in their squad came thru from the youth?

Ake, 22, manged to get out on loan to Bournemouth.. started playing well.. yanked back and stuffed into the reserves with not a minute of premier league football.

Chalobah's 22 now.. was a fixture on the bench for Napoli at the top of Serie A last season. Not even managed 90 minutes in the premier league this season.

Loftus-Cheek now 21. Was touted as a future england international a few years ago. got a few games under Hiddink last year, but this season.. 23 minutes.

and that's about it.

Going to Chelsea as a young player is a certainty to kill your career.

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1 minute ago, ProudScot said:

Agreed Chelsea aren't the best at bringing through young players.

Are Rangers either though!? No chance 

Given that their skint it'd seem an easy first 11 to break into.. but with the rumours that Arsenal were sniffing around, I can't see why he would go anywhere else. I don't like Arsenal, but they do bring thru the kids.

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2 minutes ago, andyD said:

I'm not sure anyone has a chance at Chelsea.. who in their squad came thru from the youth?

Ake, 22, manged to get out on loan to Bournemouth.. started playing well.. yanked back and stuffed into the reserves with not a minute of premier league football.

Chalobah's 22 now.. was a fixture on the bench for Napoli at the top of Serie A last season. Not even managed 90 minutes in the premier league this season.

Loftus-Cheek now 21. Was touted as a future england international a few years ago. got a few games under Hiddink last year, but this season.. 23 minutes.

and that's about it.

Going to Chelsea as a young player is a certainty to kill your career.

That's actually a complete fallacy and is way too simplistic.  Chelsea don't have a problem developing talent through the academy system, the successes at that level in the FA youth cup and in Europe are testament to that.

Where they have a problem is in bringing players through into the Chelsea first team.  There are a number of reasons for that, not least, it's very difficult for a player to break into the first team at a club which is continually successful and which has the resources to buy pretty much any player they want to.

There are lots of players who have come through the Chelsea youth system who are playing at the top level.   I saw something from last year which had Chelsea second only to Man Utd in terms of minutes played by academy graduates in the EPL that season.

It might not be at Chelsea itself but I'd say that any young player, assuming he's good enough, works hard and has the right attitude could do at lot lot worse than going there. 

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8 minutes ago, andyD said:

Given that their skint it'd seem an easy first 11 to break into.. but with the rumours that Arsenal were sniffing around, I can't see why he would go anywhere else. I don't like Arsenal, but they do bring thru the kids.

That's another complete fallacy as well.  How many academy graduates are in Arsenal's current first team squad?

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7 hours ago, aaid said:

That's another complete fallacy as well.  How many academy graduates are in Arsenal's current first team squad?

Iwobi - A regular starter.

Wilshire - (Bournemouth on loan) who is an excellent player however a career full of injuries has hampered him massively.

Gibbs - Unless injured always either on the bench or starting.

Bellerin - Again another regular starter.

Szczesney - Currently on loan at Roma.

I know 2 of those players named are currently on loan elsewhere however in the past have been regular starters for Arsenal before going on loan. In the past players such as Ashley Cole, Tony Adams, Martin Keown, Paul Merson to name a few all have come through the Arsenal youth system. Arsenal out of the 'top 6' clubs in England are one of the best for giving youth academy players a chance - they may not be great, but better than others! 

 

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5 hours ago, MikeyGC said:

Iwobi - A regular starter.

Wilshire - (Bournemouth on loan) who is an excellent player however a career full of injuries has hampered him massively.

Gibbs - Unless injured always either on the bench or starting.

Bellerin - Again another regular starter.

Szczesney - Currently on loan at Roma.

I know 2 of those players named are currently on loan elsewhere however in the past have been regular starters for Arsenal before going on loan. In the past players such as Ashley Cole, Tony Adams, Martin Keown, Paul Merson to name a few all have come through the Arsenal youth system. Arsenal out of the 'top 6' clubs in England are one of the best for giving youth academy players a chance - they may not be great, but better than others! 

 

I knew about Iwobi and Gibbs and Bellerin is a bit dubious but I'll give you that.   However, two out on loan and the test you mention being players that came through 20-30 years ago kind of proves my point.

When Wenger first came to Arsenal, he had good contacts and knowledge of the French youth system, he was able to get good quality young players at a reasonable cost.  That stopped after a while largely because other clubs started fishing in that diminishing pool of talent as well.

In this as in many other ways at Arsenal, Wenger continues to trade on a reputation that is way out of date.   Arsenal are no better - and no worse - at developing talent than most other major club.  

In fact you could level an argument that says that given the length of time that Wenger has been in charge and the ultimate power he wields at the club and the fact that they claim to have a philosophy of how they play, they should be a lot, lot better than other clubs where managers are judged by short term first team results.  

The obvious parallel is Ferguson at Man Utd and Wenger falls way way short of his record - talking specifically about youth development here. 

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I'm not as against this move as most are, as many have alluded to above, even if he didn't break into Chelseas team he would have a good chance of breaking into another through loan moves etc.

That being said it was confirmed Barcelona watched him during the victory shield and it would be nice for a young Scot to move there and develop in a different way if possible. 

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13 hours ago, aaid said:

That's actually a complete fallacy and is way too simplistic.  Chelsea don't have a problem developing talent through the academy system, the successes at that level in the FA youth cup and in Europe are testament to that.

Where they have a problem is in bringing players through into the Chelsea first team.  There are a number of reasons for that, not least, it's very difficult for a player to break into the first team at a club which is continually successful and which has the resources to buy pretty much any player they want to.

There are lots of players who have come through the Chelsea youth system who are playing at the top level.   I saw something from last year which had Chelsea second only to Man Utd in terms of minutes played by academy graduates in the EPL that season.

It might not be at Chelsea itself but I'd say that any young player, assuming he's good enough, works hard and has the right attitude could do at lot lot worse than going there. 

I take your point that the youth players might not/won't make it through at Chelsea but might make it elsewhere. However the examples Andy gave, these players are now all in their early 20's and haven't had a great deal of first team football.....and haven't had a full international cap between them.

 

I would rather see someone like Gilmour playing first team football at Rangers in the next season or two and then possibly pushing for Scotland place, as Tierney has shown is possible, than being "lost" in the Chelsea youth system and then re-appearing at 21/22 somewhere else.

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1 hour ago, Dalgety Bay TA said:

I take your point that the youth players might not/won't make it through at Chelsea but might make it elsewhere. However the examples Andy gave, these players are now all in their early 20's and haven't had a great deal of first team football.....and haven't had a full international cap between them.

 

I would rather see someone like Gilmour playing first team football at Rangers in the next season or two and then possibly pushing for Scotland place, as Tierney has shown is possible, than being "lost" in the Chelsea youth system and then re-appearing at 21/22 somewhere else.

 Ake and Chalobah are both ready to play in the first team now, Ake in particular , I wouldn't have any issues with him coming in.  The problem they both have is the quality of players ahead of them.  They see Ake primarily as a holding midfielder, he can also play left back, if not sure if he can fit into Conte's system in that role.  He's fourth choice behind Kante, Matic and Fabregas, so not exactly mediocre competition.  Similarly for Chalobah, he's third choice striker behind Costa and Batshuiyi - who himself has hardly played.  Loftus- Cheek was the one that everyone expected to break through this season, from what I understand his major problem is his attitude that he thinks he's the finished article - he's not yet - and that's what's holding him back.  Unlike virtually every other youth player, he hasn't gone on loan.

The argument really is about whether to go to one of the European "super-clubs" knowing that it will be a lot more difficult to break through to their first team, but also knowing that you should get a better level of coaching and you should be a better player for the experience. 

Or do you stay at a lower level, where you're a big fish in a small pond, you'll get more chances in the first team but your general development may not be as good.

There are pluses and minuses in both cases, I don't think it's a straight forwards choice.  The absolute worst thing though for a player is to go to a big club and think they've made it, they haven't that's when the real work starts.

I think Tierney is an unfair comparison to make, he's pretty much looked comfortable playing in the Celtic first team and the National team from day one.  He's very much an exception as most young players need to be managed a bit more.

All other things being equal, I think that players tend to find their level be that starting off a lower level and moving up or starting at the top and falling down.

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15 hours ago, andyD said:

 

Loftus-Cheek now 21. Was touted as a future england international a few years ago. got a few games under Hiddink last year, but this season.. 23 minutes.

and that's about it.

Going to Chelsea as a young player is a certainty to kill your career.

Scored twice for England Under 21s last night.

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I am dubious about such moves. Look at other young Scottish talents of recent times to join big clubs and their careers sunk. Players like Robbie Foyle  (Liverpool), Feruz (Chelsea), Ryan Gould (Sporting Lisbon) and Jack Harper (Real Madrid) have disappeared off the radar whereas if they had went for a more modest club I am sure they would have found their way into first team football and began to flourish.

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2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I am dubious about such moves. Look at other young Scottish talents of recent times to join big clubs and their careers sunk. Players like Robbie Foyle  (Liverpool), Feruz (Chelsea), Ryan Gould (Sporting Lisbon) and Jack Harper (Real Madrid) have disappeared off the radar whereas if they had went for a more modest club I am sure they would have found their way into first team football and began to flourish.

Jack Harper didn't move to Madrid he came through their system.

also think that Gaulds move will still turn out to be a positive one. 

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Just now, ProudScot said:

Jack Harper didn't move to Madrid he came through their system.

also think that Gaulds move will still turn out to be a positive one. 

Yes I realize that. My point being though that big clubs are addicted to spending big to get talented players rather than nurture them themselves. They put far more stock in tried and tested talent that they can buyt in and bed right into the first team without worrying whether they will make the grade after a two, three or four year wait whilst the player is nurtured.

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2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I am dubious about such moves. Look at other young Scottish talents of recent times to join big clubs and their careers sunk. Players like Robbie Foyle  (Liverpool), Feruz (Chelsea), Ryan Gould (Sporting Lisbon) and Jack Harper (Real Madrid) have disappeared off the radar whereas if they had went for a more modest club I am sure they would have found their way into first team football and began to flourish.

Robbie Foy started at the Liverpool youth team, and at the time we were so desperate for the next great hope to appear, everything seemed to be put on him as he was at Liverpool and football magazines at the time had a habit of bringing his name up in lists of "Premiership players for the future" and "football's next stars" etc.....

From what I understand he had niggling injury problems and just became uninterested in football by the time he hit 21 (sure I read he is/was working as a car dealer in Chester now)

 

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2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I am dubious about such moves. Look at other young Scottish talents of recent times to join big clubs and their careers sunk. Players like Robbie Foyle  (Liverpool), Feruz (Chelsea), Ryan Gould (Sporting Lisbon) and Jack Harper (Real Madrid) have disappeared off the radar whereas if they had went for a more modest club I am sure they would have found their way into first team football and began to flourish.

This post highlights part of the problem, not so much with the players and clubs but with people's expectations.

There seems to be an assumption that just because a player is in the youth system at a big club they are a superstar in the making, they're not, all it means is that they might have a chance.

The truth is that very few will come through, if any do they will be great players but most won't.

Feruz would have been a waster regardless of whether he stayed at Celtic or went somewhere else..

As has been pointed out, Harper was in the Madrid system since he was a kid as was Foy at Liverpool.

Time will tell what happens with Gauld and whether it was a good move, too early to tell at the moment.

 

 

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Gilmour still looks like a boy (and he is). He'll need to develop a lot physically before he can play in the Rangers first team, even though he's training with them (probably a lure to keep him at the club). He looks to have fantastic ability. Tough call what he should do, Barca or Bayern maybe but not sure about England.

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3 minutes ago, aaid said:

This post highlights part of the problem, not so much with the players and clubs but with people's expectations.

There seems to be an assumption that just because a player is in the youth system at a big club they are a superstar in the making, they're not, all it means is that they might have a chance.

The truth is that very few will come through, if any do they will be great players but most won't.

Feruz would have been a waster regardless of whether he stayed at Celtic or went somewhere else..

As has been pointed out, Harper was in the Madrid system since he was a kid as was Foy at Liverpool.

Time will tell what happens with Gauld and whether it was a good move, too early to tell at the moment.

 

 

Yes I do agree with that but I think that is what desperation does to people.

We have been in the doldrums for decades now with no real starlets and certainly no world class players in that time. Therefore fans pin their hopes on some much-talked about youngster and convince themselves that they are destined for great things because Liverpool, Chelsea, Sporting Lisbon etc are interested. The time to get truly excited should be when they are first team regulars at their clubs and for the national side. But desperation clouds the mind.

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8 minutes ago, aaid said:

This post highlights part of the problem, not so much with the players and clubs but with people's expectations.

There seems to be an assumption that just because a player is in the youth system at a big club they are a superstar in the making, they're not, all it means is that they might have a chance.

The truth is that very few will come through, if any do they will be great players but most won't.

Feruz would have been a waster regardless of whether he stayed at Celtic or went somewhere else..

As has been pointed out, Harper was in the Madrid system since he was a kid as was Foy at Liverpool.

Time will tell what happens with Gauld and whether it was a good move, too early to tell at the moment.

 

 

Gilmour stood out an absolute mile in the Victory Shield - even more impressive since it was played on astroturf. Why our top youth players are asked to play on that i've no idea.

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