Team v England

[vanderark14]

On 05/05/2017 at 11:01 AM, andyD said:

In terms of qualification, the England result matters not a jot. Everyone is still to play them, and they'll likely take points off them all. A point or three against England would be great, but losing changes nothing.

Away to Lithuania in September is a must win, but it's the final double header that will really make or break it.

Is this meant to be a joke post?

Every single match is a must win. We have to beat them if we want to qualify

 

 

[Malcolm]

Gordon

bardsley

martin

mulgrew

tierney

 

brown

armstrong

 

Burke

morrison 

snodgrass

 

griffiths

[borojock]

I'd be happy with a 0-0 draw out of this game, we've had 3 games against them in the last few years and nowhere near getting anything out of them so if I was the manager and set up to frustrate and give nothing away. If we can get a point out of England that could be a point more than Slovakia or Slovenia. Then all other games we have to aim to win.

I'd go for the below line up and before you ask no i'm not Ricky Sbrigia, I appreciate its very defensive. I'd go for Burke and Phillips as both very quick, good stamina, good height for defensive set pieces and both can carry the ball out of defence

                        Gordon

Bardsley    Martin      Mulgrew    Tierney

        Morrison    Fletcher    Brown

O Burke                                    Phillips

                    Fletcher

[vanderark14]

We've really had the life sapped out of our support

"happy with 0-0"

"not a must win" this seems to be assuming England win every game. That worked well with Germany didn't it?

is it apathy? 

[Malcolm]

$hit or bust for me... we are behind so we need a special result somewhere and where better than against England.  I actually think England might be ok with the draw.

[vanderark14]

13 hours ago, Malcolm said:

$hit or bust for me... we are behind so we need a special result somewhere and where better than against England.  I actually think England might be ok with the draw.

Ireland needed a result last time round and they got it against the top seeds, it could be the spark we need. 

I've always found it puzzling when fans, journalists and pundits claim we should write off the matches against top seeds.

[borojock]

I really believe the England result is not a must win, if we don't win that game it doesn't mean were out of the running. We could lose that game and still get 2nd place if we win the final 4 games which I think we can do.

If we get a draw with England that could easily be a point more than Slovakia or Slovenia get which would then bring us level with Slovenia on points and mean were 1 behind Slovakia.

If we get a draw with England i'll be celebrating that like a win.

You can say that is apathy I'd argue is realism of where we currently are

[ProudScot]

1 hour ago, borojock said:

I really believe the England result is not a must win, if we don't win that game it doesn't mean were out of the running. We could lose that game and still get 2nd place if we win the final 4 games which I think we can do.

If we get a draw with England that could easily be a point more than Slovakia or Slovenia get which would then bring us level with Slovenia on points and mean were 1 behind Slovakia.

If we get a draw with England i'll be celebrating that like a win.

You can say that is apathy I'd argue is realism of where we currently are

When was the last time we won 4 qualifiers in a row!?

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, borojock said:

I really believe the England result is not a must win, if we don't win that game it doesn't mean were out of the running. We could lose that game and still get 2nd place if we win the final 4 games which I think we can do.

If we get a draw with England that could easily be a point more than Slovakia or Slovenia get which would then bring us level with Slovenia on points and mean were 1 behind Slovakia.

If we get a draw with England i'll be celebrating that like a win.

You can say that is apathy I'd argue is realism of where we currently are

You talk of realism but start of saying we could win the final 4 games. Have we ever done this?

[Squirrelhumper]

3 hours ago, borojock said:

I really believe the England result is not a must win, if we don't win that game it doesn't mean were out of the running. We could lose that game and still get 2nd place if we win the final 4 games which I think we can do.

If we get a draw with England that could easily be a point more than Slovakia or Slovenia get which would then bring us level with Slovenia on points and mean were 1 behind Slovakia.

If we get a draw with England i'll be celebrating that like a win.

You can say that is apathy I'd argue is realism of where we currently are

it's a must win.

[Blackpool78]

McGregor Brown and Armstrong have to start this game, must win game and best to go with them as they know each others game well

[Rude Gullit]

56 minutes ago, Blackpool78 said:

McGregor Brown and Armstrong have to start this game, must win game and best to go with them as they know each others game well

Have to agree with this. The celtic card is the strongest one in our (very weak) hand at the moment. Tbh I still reckon that wont be enough and that England will beat us comfortably, but it's all about maximising our chances should they have an off day.

[er yir macaroon]

On 03/05/2017 at 10:56 PM, noctonjock said:

Strachan will pick something like this : I think  for this game (or should)  

                 Gordon 

Anya        Martin      Mulgrew   Robertson 

  Fraser  Brown Armstrong   Ritchie 

                    Snodgrass 

                   Griffiths 

                 

 

The chances of Tierney not playing, if fit, are zero.

[er yir macaroon]

37 minutes ago, Rude Gullit said:

Have to agree with this. The celtic card is the strongest one in our (very weak) hand at the moment. Tbh I still reckon that wont be enough and that England will beat us comfortably, but it's all about maximising our chances should they have an off day.

I'd be happy with that, it gives a bit of a goal threat from midfield, which we've been lacking. 

[WeLuvIrnBru]

1 hour ago, Blackpool78 said:

McGregor Brown and Armstrong have to start this game, must win game and best to go with them as they know each others game well

Brown and Armstrong should certainly be the heartbeat of our midfield.  I strongly disagree with McGregor though - I do not think he should be near our first team.  I would personally put Morrison in there with Brown and      Armstrong.  My team would be:

                                                                                             Gordon

                                                                Tierney        Martin         Mulgrew      Robertson

                                                                  Burke          Brown       Morrison       Fraser

                                                                                           Armstrong

                                                                                                Griffiths

A wee bit harsh on Snodgrass maybe?  But he has not played very well for Scotland recently, and I would be tempted to go with the pace of Fraser and Burke down the wings........

Edited May 8, 2017 by WeLuvIrnBru

[WeLuvIrnBru]

I do have a horrible feeling that he will go with something down the lines of this though:

                                    Gordon

                Anya     Martin       Mulgrew   Tierney

              Snodgrass    Brown  D.Fletcher     Forrest

                                    Armstrong

                            S.Fletcher / C.Martin

<shudder> - that would be horrific.  But it would not surprise me - according to Strachan we need height more than guile and pace.......and S.Fletchers has scored a few goals recently - he also has a ready made excuse to start Martin up front in that he scored the winner against Slovenia.  I hope that my first team is more like it....but Strachan is stubborn enough to pick something along these lines....

 

[vanderark14]

11 hours ago, WeLuvIrnBru said:

Brown and Armstrong should certainly be the heartbeat of our midfield.  I strongly disagree with McGregor though - I do not think he should be near our first team.  I would personally put Morrison in there with Brown and      Armstrong.  My team would be:

                                                                                             Gordon

                                                                Tierney        Martin         Mulgrew      Robertson

                                                                  Burke          Brown       Morrison       Fraser

                                                                                           Armstrong

                                                                                                Griffiths

A wee bit harsh on Snodgrass maybe?  But he has not played very well for Scotland recently, and I would be tempted to go with the pace of Fraser and Burke down the wings........

Why is Robertson on the sidelines?

is he managing the team? If so I'll take that

[andyD]

On 07/05/2017 at 7:06 PM, vanderark14 said:

Is this meant to be a joke post?

Every single match is a must win. We have to beat them if we want to qualify

Not a joke. It's not a must win. You could claim it is because if we win every single game we qualify off our own back, but this is football.. the teams in 3rd don't win every game.. that's why they're in 3rd.

For it to be a must win, we'd need to beat Slovakia while they Slovakia would need to win every other game, including England away. Realistically, it's not going to happen. Slovakia are a decent side, but in the last year or so, they've drawn 0-0 with Lativa, Northern Ireland and Austria. Lost to Slovenia and been battered 6-0 by Sweden.

I'm not saying they're rubbish, it'll still be really hard to finish above them, but the England game will not be the fixture that decides that. Away to Lithuania seems like a likely candidate with us being us, but if we make it thru that then it'll be the head to heads.

For those saying 4 wins, I'm not sure that's even true. Bear in mind Slovakia and Slovenia have to play each other and only one team can take 3 points from that. 3 win and a draw will probably see us home. Then its down to hoping that Group E remains as much of a cluster-f as it has been so far and we're ahead of their 2nd place on points.

Anyway, my point is, if we lose to england, it's not game over.

[vanderark14]

1 minute ago, andyD said:

Not a joke. It's not a must win. You could claim it is because if we win every single game we qualify off our own back, but this is football.. the teams in 3rd don't win every game.. that's why they're in 3rd.

For it to be a must win, we'd need to beat Slovakia while they Slovakia would need to win every other game, including England away. Realistically, it's not going to happen. Slovakia are a decent side, but in the last year or so, they've drawn 0-0 with Lativa, Northern Ireland and Austria. Lost to Slovenia and been battered 6-0 by Sweden.

I'm not saying they're rubbish, it'll still be really hard to finish above them, but the England game will not be the fixture that decides that. Away to Lithuania seems like a likely candidate with us being us, but if we make it thru that then it'll be the head to heads.

For those saying 4 wins, I'm not sure that's even true. Bear in mind Slovakia and Slovenia have to play each other and only one team can take 3 points from that. 3 win and a draw will probably see us home. Then its down to hoping that Group E remains as much of a cluster-f as it has been so far and we're ahead of their 2nd place on points.

Anyway, my point is, if we lose to england, it's not game over.

its not game over but it makes it even harder to qualify, thats why every game should be treated as a must win.

 

 

[andyD]

4 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

its not game over but it makes it even harder to qualify, thats why every game should be treated as a must win.

"should be treated as" sure.
I've said we should go and try and win it.
That in reality it's not a "must win" doesn't mean you go out to lose or it's fine to not bother turning up.

[Bino's]

its a must win and the only reason we won the last game was because we went in saying its a must win

 

if we go in saying a draw would be good, we'll lose

[vanderark14]

4 minutes ago, andyD said:

"should be treated as" sure.
I've said we should go and try and win it.
That in reality it's not a "must win" doesn't mean you go out to lose or it's fine to not bother turning up.

allowing the players or managers to believe this is not a must win match allows them to believe they can lose and fix it later on. The teams with belief and the will to win never treat games in such a way. 

The Irish, Welsh, Norther Irish treat every game as if its a cup final, thats why they get to tournaments and we stay at home sulking

[andyD]

7 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

allowing the players or managers to believe this is not a must win match allows them to believe they can lose and fix it later on. The teams with belief and the will to win never treat games in such a way. 

The Irish, Welsh, Norther Irish treat every game as if its a cup final, thats why they get to tournaments and we stay at home sulking

You think we dictate what Strachan believes?

Managers and players will think what they want.. some or the players I'm sure will think it's must win, some wont. And that's fine. We didn't win the last game because us the fans said "it's a must win", as Bino suggests, that's just silly. We won because we picked the right team, we worked hard for the full 90 minutes and Tierney and Armstrong did (surprisingly) superbly with their respective tasks.

As fans we have to trust that the players and the manager will be up for the England game, and there's no reason to think they won't be. We'll be committed and we'll have a right go. No amount of us saying "it's a must win" on a message board or in the pub is going to have the slightest effect.

What will make a difference is the support we give them on the day. Let them hear that we're behind them and we 're supporting them to win it. If we go behind, get behind them more. If someone makes a mistake, cheer them and encourage them. That's what makes a difference, not declaring something as "must win" a month ahead of time.

[vanderark14]

1 minute ago, andyD said:

You think we dictate what Strachan believes?

Managers and players will think what they want.. some or the players I'm sure will think it's must win, some wont. And that's fine. We didn't win the last game because us the fans said "it's a must win", as Bino suggests, that's just silly. We won because we picked the right team, we worked hard for the full 90 minutes and Tierney and Armstrong did (surprisingly) superbly with their respective tasks.

As fans we have to trust that the players and the manager will be up for the England game, and there's no reason to think they won't be. We'll be committed and we'll have a right go. No amount of us saying "it's a must win" on a message board or in the pub is going to have the slightest effect.

What will make a difference is the support we give them on the day. Let them hear that we're behind them and we 're supporting them to win it. If we go behind, get behind them more. If someone makes a mistake, cheer them and encourage them. That's what makes a difference, not declaring something as "must win" a month ahead of time.

to be clear here

1. I'm not just talking about fans saying its "must win" I'm referring to the coaching staff and players who love that saying

2. There's plenty reason to believe the manager and players aren't up for a match, they haven't given 100% for god knows how long

[andyD]

well, (1) is a cliche that media folk love. I don't think that behind the scenes the players or staff really mention that it's a must win, it's just a good headline and hopefully helps draw a decent crowd which can then make a difference with the right kind of support.

(2) i think they have. Some question Strachan's commitment and desire, but for me, he's desperate to do well for Scotland. If you need convincing, go back and watch the Slovakia game again and see his reaction to the Mak goal. He was absolutely raging at the lack of a decision for Fletcher. Whatever quip he might have for the cameras he's as emotionally involved in it as the rest of us. As for the players, I think they've been trying as well, but for some it's just not possible. Fletcher is done, he has been for a while, but he's committed and will still try his hardest if give the opportunity. Hanley was trying, it's just he's a pretty average player and wasn't match sharp. Snodgrass is trying, but i think he's carrying a knock as his club form's dropped off as well.

But trying on it's own isn't enough. we need the right players to be trying (those three should probably be left on the bench) and we as supporters need to properly get behind the team at this point. like i said, cheer the mistakes, it'll really make a difference to the players. If in the 67th minute James Forrest tries a stepover and fall on his face, don't groan and berate him, cheer him and shout at him to get up and that he'll beat the guy next time. Proper support.

I honestly believe that's what could make the difference in us qualifying.. "must win" matters not a jot. It's not true in the real world of football and it's particularly good as a motivational tool, as different players deal with that pressure in different ways. It can hurt as much as it helps.