Big Teams and Wee Teams

[Marky]

Inspired by the banter on the Weekend Games thread, I got to thinking about who are the big teams and the wee teams. The definition of “big” and “wee” here obviously has to be in the context of Scottish football and to keep it real has to relate to the “modern game” which I would define as being from the 60s onwards.

 

My thoughts:-

 

Much as it pains me, I might as well state the obvious straight away in saying the Celtic and Rangers are clearly in a different bracket in the “big” sense.

 

Aberdeen have probably done enough to be in a bracket of their own below the gruesome twosome. Combination of support and success puts them well ahead of anyone else. Obviously “success” has to be given a pretty wide definition in the context of Scottish football, so I would include consistency of league finishes in that definition.

 

Then you probably have Hearts and Hibs below Aberdeen. I’m not 100% convinced they deserve a category of their own, particularly from a success point of view, but they both command considerably bigger supports than any other team and outside of the old firm would arguably be Scotland’s best known two clubs. Thought about putting Dundee Utd in this category too, but in reality Utd are all about an 8 year period in the 1980s. Other than that they’ve been no more remarkable than any other of the “big wee clubs”.

 

The big wee clubs is a much longer list. For me it includes the following in no particular order:-

 

St. Johnstone

Partick Thistle

Kilmarnock

Dundee

Motherwell

Dundee Utd

St. Mirren

Falkirk

Dunfermline

 

Notably current Premiership teams Hamilton Accies, Ross County and ICT don’t make the cut. Thought about throwing Morton a bone and including them, but they’ve just spent far too long in the wilderness now.

 

So, thoughts/opinions?

 

Who disagrees with the brackets? Who should be in a different bracket? Who doesnae belong in the big wee team bracket, or who does that hasn’t been? Who doesnae give a monkey’s and thinks this is a $h1te thread?

Edited May 2, 2017 by Marky

[Squirrelhumper]

I'd put Aberdeen ahead of the Edinburgh sides in terms of success for sure but Hearts in particular have a bigger regular support.

No doubt others will disagree but Hearts having 10,000+ in the FoH alone shows how big a support they have.

Aberdeen definitely more successful in my lifetime though, although most of that was in the early part of my lifetime! (80s)

[sbcmfc]

What have Hibs ever done?

In terms of "success", have they done much more than Dundee United, Motherwell, Killie?

They have a bigger support, but they've been relegated twice in the last 25 years, they have won a cup, lost a few finals, so have Motherwell, Kilmarnock and dundee united.

[GRBear]

Sevco were a big club.

The Rangers are a diddy wee club.

[Marky]

2 minutes ago, GRBear said:

Sevco were a big club.

The Rangers are a diddy wee club.

Is that you using the "I'll get it in before anyone else does" logic.

[Marky]

11 minutes ago, sbcmfc said:

What have Hibs ever done?

In terms of "success", have they done much more than Dundee United, Motherwell, Killie?

They have a bigger support, but they've been relegated twice in the last 25 years, they have won a cup, lost a few finals, so have Motherwell, Kilmarnock and dundee united.

 

I did say I wasn’t convinced about giving them a category of their own. Certainly the success thing is a problem for Hibs, but I’d be surprised if their league form generally isn’t better than the clubs you mention (maybe Utd excepted). Utd have been relegated twice too in a similar period. I thought Hibs had won 2 cups, a Scottish Cup and a League Cup? I would also regard them as more “famous” than the others you mention, in the sense of football fans outside Scotland. All very subjective though. I just generally think of Hibs being a big club in the Scottish sense (Utd borderline) whereas Motherwell and Killie are definite big wee clubs.

[Robbo `81]

As someone whom started watching Football in the late 70's - For me, United definitely qualify as a "Big Team" -- league winners and a Euro Final during the 80's...

For me,.....

The big clubs are Rangers - leaving aside the tedious oldco/newco stuff, Celtic, Hearts and United

Hibs are borderline "Big" / "Wee"

All others are varying degrees of "wee"....

 

[GRBear]

Hibs fans won't be happy no one thinks their a big club.

"But but but... we beat Sevco in a Scottish cup final" 

[Squirrelhumper]

23 minutes ago, Marky said:

 

I did say I wasn’t convinced about giving them a category of their own. Certainly the success thing is a problem for Hibs, but I’d be surprised if their league form generally isn’t better than the clubs you mention (maybe Utd excepted). Utd have been relegated twice too in a similar period. I thought Hibs had won 2 cups, a Scottish Cup and a League Cup? I would also regard them as more “famous” than the others you mention, in the sense of football fans outside Scotland. All very subjective though. I just generally think of Hibs being a big club in the Scottish sense (Utd borderline) whereas Motherwell and Killie are definite big wee clubs.

 

 

Hoi - we've won 2 cups in that time! Scottish and League Cup and not been relegated!

[sbcmfc]

19 minutes ago, Robbo `81 said:

As someone whom started watching Football in the late 70's - For me, United definitely qualify as a "Big Team" -- league winners and a Euro Final during the 80's...

For me,.....

The big clubs are Rangers - leaving aside the tedious oldco/newco stuff, Celtic, Hearts and United

Hibs are borderline "Big" / "Wee"

All others are varying degrees of "wee"....

 

No Aberdeen?

[PapofGlencoe]

in order:

under 5 minutes thought put in and hopefully no offense taken.  Criteria:

History/Potential size of support/Gates/Worldwide recognition

Celtic

Rangers

Aberdeen

Hearts

Dundee United

Hibs

Dundee

Kilmarnock

Falkirk

St Mirren

Dunfermline

Morton

Motherwell

St Johnstone

Partick Thistle

Ayr

ICT

Ross County

Raith Rovers

 

 

The rest all "Wee".

Hibs and Dundee Utd about the same.

Ayr and Morton for me are sleeping giants in the Scottish football context.

Killie's heavily relying on history to claim as one of the bigger clubs.  

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by PapofGlencoe

[Brummie Hibs]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_Scotland

[Mazziessc]

25 minutes ago, Robbo `81 said:

As someone whom started watching Football in the late 70's - For me, United definitely qualify as a "Big Team" -- league winners and a Euro Final during the 80's...

For me,.....

The big clubs are Rangers - leaving aside the tedious oldco/newco stuff, Celtic, Hearts and United

Hibs are borderline "Big" / "Wee"

All others are varying degrees of "wee"....

 

The inconsistency of UTD makes them no where near a "big" team. regardless of what they done 30 years ago.

Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, and hibs are the only "big" teams in Scotland. Probably in that order too.

In terms of the rest of the spl, Killie, Partick, Motherwell, St J and Dundee follow next but some distance behind the "big" clubs.(There's probably an argument to fit Dunfermline/Falkirk into this bracket)

Hamilton, Inverness & County are easily the smallest in the top tier. 

League One/Two, Sadly these clubs will do nothing but rotate their leagues and positions.

 

 

[Mazziessc]

2 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

in order:

under 5 minutes thought put in and hopefully no offense taken.  Criteria:

History/Potential size of support/Gates/Worldwide recognition

Celtic

Rangers

Aberdeen

Hearts

Dundee United

Hibs

Dundee

Kilmarnock

Falkirk

St Mirren

Dunfermline

Morton

Motherwell

St Johnstone

Partick Thistle

Ayr

ICT

Ross County

Raith Rovers

 

 

The rest all "Wee".

Hibs and Dundee Utd about the same.

Ayr and Morton for me are sleeping giants in the Scottish football context.

 

 

Sorry but Dumbarton have been consistently the best part time club in the country for seasons now. Maybe no bigger than Morton but certainly bigger than Ayr. 

[Robbo `81]

17 minutes ago, sbcmfc said:

No Aberdeen?

Sorry - How did I miss Aberdeen ????   

[Robbo `81]

38 minutes ago, Robbo `81 said:

As someone whom started watching Football in the late 70's - For me, United definitely qualify as a "Big Team" -- league winners and a Euro Final during the 80's...

For me,.....

The big clubs are Rangers - leaving aside the tedious oldco/newco stuff, Celtic, Hearts and United ---   OBVIOUSLY shoud have added Aberdeen originally !!!

 

38 minutes ago, Robbo `81 said:

Hibs are borderline "Big" / "Wee"

All others are varying degrees of "wee"....

 

Quoting myself cos can't edit now --- Aberdeen included as "Big" team ....

[Robbo `81]

11 minutes ago, Mazziessc said:

The inconsistency of UTD makes them no where near a "big" team. regardless of what they done 30 years ago.

Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, and hibs are the only "big" teams in Scotland. Probably in that order too.

In terms of the rest of the spl, Killie, Partick, Motherwell, St J and Dundee follow next but some distance behind the "big" clubs.(There's probably an argument to fit Dunfermline/Falkirk into this bracket)

Hamilton, Inverness & County are easily the smallest in the top tier. 

League One/Two, Sadly these clubs will do nothing but rotate their leagues and positions.

 

 

See the "For me" bit in my post..it's critical 

[PapofGlencoe]

12 minutes ago, Mazziessc said:

Sorry but Dumbarton have been consistently the best part time club in the country for seasons now. Maybe no bigger than Morton but certainly bigger than Ayr. 

I think Dumbarton are a great club.  I just feel Ayr and Morton have a greater pool of support out there.  Feel if either got to a final they'd take a bigger support than the Sons.

Maybe i'm coloured by Somerset Park.  Great wee ground and i've seen them fill it.  Also they have their rivalry with Killie which spices it up a bit.

Edited May 2, 2017 by PapofGlencoe

[Marky]

23 minutes ago, Mazziessc said:

The inconsistency of UTD makes them no where near a "big" team. regardless of what they done 30 years ago.

Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, and hibs are the only "big" teams in Scotland. Probably in that order too.

In terms of the rest of the spl, Killie, Partick, Motherwell, St J and Dundee follow next but some distance behind the "big" clubs.(There's probably an argument to fit Dunfermline/Falkirk into this bracket)

Hamilton, Inverness & County are easily the smallest in the top tier.

League One/Two, Sadly these clubs will do nothing but rotate their leagues and positions.

 

 

Ahem!!! St. Mirren!!!

 

 

[Mazziessc]

49 minutes ago, Marky said:

Ahem!!! St. Mirren!!!

 

 

Honestly... and it's only my opinion... St Mirren are prob in with Hamilton, county et al.

[Marky]

6 minutes ago, Mazziessc said:

Honestly... and it's only my opinion... St Mirren are prob in with Hamilton, county et al.

Ach. The cluelessness of youth! How can Falkirk and Dunfermline for example be considered bigger than St. Mirren, by anyone of any age. There's just absolutely no basis for it whatsoever.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Marky

[Regenmann]

1 hour ago, Mazziessc said:

The inconsistency of UTD makes them no where near a "big" team. regardless of what they done 30 years ago.

Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, and hibs are the only "big" teams in Scotland. Probably in that order too.

In terms of the rest of the spl, Killie, Partick, Motherwell, St J and Dundee follow next but some distance behind the "big" clubs.(There's probably an argument to fit Dunfermline/Falkirk into this bracket)

Hamilton, Inverness & County are easily the smallest in the top tier. 

League One/Two, Sadly these clubs will do nothing but rotate their leagues and positions.

 

 

Rangers easily first - most trophies and the largest number of supporters in Scotland (by a considerable margin) - yes, Celtic may have a higher average attendance but that's due to having a larger stadium (and some creative counting).

[adamntg]

1 hour ago, Mazziessc said:

The inconsistency of UTD makes them no where near a "big" team. regardless of what they done 30 years ago.

Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs, and hibs are the only "big" teams in Scotland. Probably in that order too.

 

 

 

I don't think you've paid much attention to United's consistency over the last 10 years.  Clearly they've been in the doldrums for the last two years but that's really a blip.  Prior to that it was 9 consecutive top six finishes - 5th, 4th, 6th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 5th as well as five cup finals (mostly lost right enough).

And the "eight good years in the 80s" that were mentioned was actually 17 consecutive top five finishes from 1976 to 1992.  

I'd say they were clear sixth biggest team in Scotland, but depending how you weight attendances and European success (14 consecutive qualifications) they could be considered by some measures the fifth "biggest".  

This year will be the first since 1958/59 that the club has not been either in the top flight or promoted to the top flight (yes, I've given up already) and next year will be only the third in the second division in the last 57.  

 

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by adamntg

[Marky]

8 minutes ago, adamntg said:

I don't think you've paid much attention to United's consistency over the last 10 years.  Clearly they've been in the doldrums for the last two years but that's really a blip.  Prior to that it was 9 consecutive top six finishes - 5th, 4th, 6th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 5th as well as five cup finals (mostly lost right enough).

And the "eight good years in the 80s" that were mentioned was actually 17 consecutive top five finishes from 1976 to 1992.

I'd say they were clear sixth biggest team in Scotland, but depending how you weight attendances and European success (14 consecutive qualifications) they could be considered by some measures the fifth "biggest".

This year will be the first since 1958/59 that the club has not been either in the top flight or promoted to the top flight (yes, I've given up already) and next year will be only the third in the second division in the last 57.

 

 

Ignore him Adam. He doesn't even think St. Mirren are a big team!

[adamntg]

1 minute ago, Marky said:

Ignore him Adam. He doesn't even think St. Mirren are a big team!

The nerve!