ParisInAKilt Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 1 minute ago, girvanTA said: I genuinely feel sorry for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 57 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: The evidence will come out eventually but western intelligence agencies are using Muslims to further their own geo political interests. Which are...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Dave78 said: Which are...? Regime change in Syria appears to the main one at present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said: Stop bombing their countries, stop using proxy groups who cause more terrorism than western countries will ever experience. Stop selling arms. Stop supporting Israel and Saudi Arabia. There's probably more. The evidence will come out eventually but western intelligence agencies are using Muslims to further their own geo political interests. The cheek of these non white feckers daring to get pissed off that we kill their children by the thousands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girvanTA Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 12 minutes ago, Ormond said: The cheek of these non white feckers daring to get pissed off that we kill their children by the thousands. 57 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: 1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 27, 2017 Author Share Posted May 27, 2017 12 minutes ago, Ormond said: The cheek of these non white feckers daring to get pissed off that we kill their children by the thousands. Islamic attacks on the West have been happening since at least the late 1960s .......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said: Islamic attacks on the West have been happening since at least the late 1960s .......... Have they? Examples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said: Islamic attacks on the West have been happening since at least the late 1960s .......... Yep. Remind me again how long the West has been shitting all over the Middle East? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 When we attack them, it's for democracy, freedom and human rights. When they attack us, it's for Islam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 27, 2017 Author Share Posted May 27, 2017 7 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: Have they? Examples? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1993321/posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1993321/posts Another example of you not having a clue what you're talking about. Black September / PLO / PFLP etc were secular, political movements - hence their alliance with Western groups like the Red Army Faction. They included Arab Christians, Arab Muslims, Arab secularists. Nothing to do with Islamism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1993321/posts Brilliant. The comments are even better. Edited May 27, 2017 by ParisInAKilt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 27, 2017 Author Share Posted May 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: Another example of you not having a clue what you're talking about. Another example ? Oh so sorry Mr Knowall http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.attacks.west.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Another example ? Oh so sorry Mr Knowall http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.attacks.west.html Are you honestly this blind? Just because someone on the internet says an attack is 'Islamic' doesn't make it Islamic. Middle-eastern based terrorism from the 1960s, '70s & '80s was anti-Zionist, anti-imperialist, and thoroughly secular. As I mentioned, these groups contained Christians, they were allied with the whole Baader-Meinhoff nexus which any self-respecting Islamist wouldn't touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 "In 1957, my grandfather, Ambassador Joseph P. Kennedy, sat on a secret committee charged with investigating the CIA’s clandestine mischief in the Mideast. The so called “Bruce-Lovett Report,” to which he was a signatory, described CIA coup plots in Jordan, Syria, Iran, Iraq and Egypt, all common knowledge on the Arab street, but virtually unknown to the American people who believed, at face value, their government’s denials. The report blamed the CIA for the rampant anti-Americanism that was then mysteriously taking root “in the many countries in the world today.” https://www.google.co.nz/amp/www.politico.eu/article/why-the-arabs-dont-want-us-in-syria-mideast-conflict-oil-intervention/amp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 28, 2017 Author Share Posted May 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: Are you honestly this blind? Just because someone on the internet says an attack is 'Islamic' doesn't make it Islamic. Middle-eastern based terrorism from the 1960s, '70s & '80s was anti-Zionist, anti-imperialist, and thoroughly secular. As I mentioned, these groups contained Christians, they were allied with the whole Baader-Meinhoff nexus which any self-respecting Islamist wouldn't touch. You seem to want to pigeonhole my statement of Islamic Terrorism in the West being a feature since the late 60s It certainly took on a new level after 1979 with Iran however the undertones have always been there mixed with nationalist, anti communist, fascist mentalities And whilst you can say some of these middle east terrorist organisations active in the 60s and 70s were "thoroughly secular" all represented a predominantly muslim membership Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: You seem to want to pigeonhole my statement of Islamic Terrorism in the West being a feature since the late 60s It certainly took on a new level after 1979 with Iran however the undertones have always been there mixed with nationalist, anti communist, fascist mentalities And whilst you can say some of these middle east terrorist organisations active in the 60s and 70s were "thoroughly secular" all represented a predominantly muslim membership It's not me who's doing the pigeonholing. In response to GirvanTA, PIAK asks "What ideology?" and you respond with "Seriously?" followed by your preferred method of message-board discourse - posting links to pages that are either intentionally misleading or simply put together by folk who don't have a clue. These links claim that the ideological motivation for these attacks was 'Islamic'. Your latest bit of pigeonholing is that these groups were "anti-communist" - a large number of the attacks listed in your links were carried out by the PFLP, a Marxist-Leninist group founded by a Christian Palestinian. As for these groups "representing a predominantly muslim membership" - it's that species of argument that brands all Muslims as terrorists. And you accuse me of pigeonholing ... The ideological motivation for almost all Middle-eastern based attacks prior to the 1990s was anti-Zionism, not Islamism. Anti-Zionism is a political movement (like Zionism), not religious. Anti-Zionists can be of any religion or none. Edited May 28, 2017 by DonnyTJS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 28, 2017 Author Share Posted May 28, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: It's not me who's doing the pigeonholing. In response to GirvanTA, PIAK asks "What ideology?" and you respond with "Seriously?" followed by your preferred method of message-board discourse - posting links to pages that are either intentionally misleading or simply put together by folk who don't have a clue. Again - i keep forgetting that you are the font of all knowledge and know everything about everything Will need to keep that in mind for all your future posts - in fact there isnt really any point in offering a different opinion to yours is there ? Asking what the ideology of Islamic Terrorism is doesnt deserve a "seriously" response ? This is the TAMB not Quora If you dont know what that ideology is then you havent been paying attention But hey - lets make excuses for Middle Eastern (see what i did there) terrorism in the West for the last 50 years. Lets not recognise Israel & have no interference in the region whatsoever and apologise for our peccadilloes of the past and give massive compensation Lets give Islamic State an area of the Middle East and let them be Lets not bother about the rulers of these regimes and how they persecute certain factions inside and outside of their borders especially when the persecuted and victims of genocide ask for help - because once we do they will just start killing each other anyway Now that we have solved that lets get back to the General Election Edited May 28, 2017 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 5 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: Again - i keep forgetting that you are the font of all knowledge and know everything about everything Will need to keep that in mind for all your future posts - in fact there isnt really any point in offering a different opinion to yours is there ? Asking what the ideology of Islamic Terrorism is doesnt deserve a "seriously" response ? This is the TAMB not Quora If you dont know what that ideology is then you havent been paying attention But hey - lets make excuses for Middle Eastern (see what i did there) terrorism in the West for the last 50 years. Lets not recognise Israel & have no interference in the region whatsoever and apologise for our peccadilloes of the past and give massive compensation Lets give Islamic State an area of the Middle East and let them be Lets not bother about the rulers of these regimes and how they persecute certain factions inside and outside of their borders especially when the persecuted and victims of genocide ask for help - because once we do they will just start killing each other anyway Now that we have solved that lets get back to the General Election It's funny that on the topic of Scottish independence, you quite rightly question what the mainstream media are saying but in terms of "Islamic terrorism" and Isis you appear to be buying everything you're told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flumax Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 10 hours ago, girvanTA said: I'm sorry, did I touch a nerve? B3ta.com newsletter came out and thought it was partially, amusing in an ironic manner given some of the stuff seen online (less so here for a weird reason) , I thought I would share in a pertinent thread. Had It been aimed at you I would have quoted you. However good of you to be self aware that some folk may get a touched nerve by your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girvanTA Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 27 minutes ago, flumax said: B3ta.com newsletter came out and thought it was partially, amusing in an ironic manner given some of the stuff seen online (less so here for a weird reason) , I thought I would share in a pertinent thread. Had It been aimed at you I would have quoted you. However good of you to be self aware that some folk may get a touched nerve by your comments. My apologies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 6 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: Again - i keep forgetting that you are the font of all knowledge and know everything about everything Will need to keep that in mind for all your future posts - in fact there isnt really any point in offering a different opinion to yours is there ? Asking what the ideology of Islamic Terrorism is doesnt deserve a "seriously" response ? This is the TAMB not Quora If you dont know what that ideology is then you havent been paying attention But hey - lets make excuses for Middle Eastern (see what i did there) terrorism in the West for the last 50 years. Lets not recognise Israel & have no interference in the region whatsoever and apologise for our peccadilloes of the past and give massive compensation Lets give Islamic State an area of the Middle East and let them be Lets not bother about the rulers of these regimes and how they persecute certain factions inside and outside of their borders especially when the persecuted and victims of genocide ask for help - because once we do they will just start killing each other anyway Now that we have solved that lets get back to the General Election And where have I said any of that? I am not the font of all knowledge, but I do know more than you about the motivation of Middle-Eastern terrorism over the last fifty years (yes, I did see what you did there; I assume it's as close as we'll get to an admission that you and the sites you linked to were wrong). I do recognize Israel. I favour a two-state solution. The vast majority of the attacks on the 'West' from the 1960s, '70s and '80s which you categorized as Islamic were in response to Israel's holding of the occupied territories after the Six-Day War and then further territory after the Yom Kippur War. Explaining something isn't the same as justifying it. The reason why it's important to point out that there has been an ideological shift in the motivation for terrorism in the past fifty years, from political to religious, is because the timing of that shift holds the key to explaining it, and explaining it offers a sliver of hope of finding some form of solution. The 1991 Gulf War. Contrary to the crap you posted above, I wasn't against that war - it had UN backing and involved a coalition of regional states that rightly feared Iraqi expansion (even fellow Ba'athist regime Syria joined in). The West's involvement shortened the war, possibly preventing another drawn-out war of attrition like Iran-Iraq of the previous decade. No attempt at regime change either (well, it was assumed Saddam would fall after the defeat). But the US stationed troops on Saudi soil. In the holiest land in Islam. And they remained after Saddam had been defeated. That's what sparked the beginnings of Islamic terrorism in the West. The increased interference, the decision to shift to enforced regime change without UN backing, the whole fvcking role-call of stupidity we've seen since 1990 is why we're where we are. I don't buy into the idea that this chaos was all planned. Imho, it's largely the result of politicians doing what they think is best (best for them and the stability of their oil supply, sure enough) and doing it incompetently. If there's any solution it involves pulling back, stopping interference, understanding the sensibilities of Islam and not spreading shite like all Middle-eastern terrorism in the West up to the 1990s was due to Islamic ideology, because that is not only completely wrong, it masks the reasons why it now certainly is Islamic and therefore makes it harder to see the motivation and the solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 8 hours ago, DonnyTJS said: Another example of you not having a clue what you're talking about. Black September / PLO / PFLP etc were secular, political movements - hence their alliance with Western groups like the Red Army Faction. They included Arab Christians, Arab Muslims, Arab secularists. Nothing to do with Islamism. Yeah The Tamil Tigers were the leading 'suicide' bombers for a while and they are strictly secular. Many examples of it. https://www.thenation.com/article/heres-what-a-man-who-studied-every-suicide-attack-in-the-world-says-about-isiss-motives/ It is the sense of grievance that motivates them. Without that they would not be willing to volunteer and there would be no conversation about Islam. Islam is strictly against suicide so they must convert it from suicide into a martyrs death to avoid it being a sin. He says that religious fervor is not a motive unto itself. Rather, it serves as a tool for recruitment and a potent means of getting people to overcome their fear of death and natural aversion to killing innocents. “Very often, suicide attackers realize they have instincts for self-preservation that they have to overcome,” and religious beliefs are often part of that process, said Pape in an appearance on my radio show, Politics and Reality Radio, last week. But, Pape adds, there have been “many hundreds of secular suicide attackers,” which suggests that radical theology alone doesn’t explain terrorist attacks. From 1980 until about 2003, the “world leader” in suicide attacks was the Tamil Tigers, a secular Marxist nationalist group in Sri Lanka. According to Pape’s research, underlying the outward expressions of religious fervor, ISIS’s goals, like those of most terrorist groups, are distinctly earthly: What 95 percent of all suicide attacks have in common, since 1980, is not religion, but a specific strategic motivation to respond to a military intervention, often specifically a military occupation, of territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly. From Lebanon and the West Bank in the 80s and 90s, to Iraq and Afghanistan, and up through the Paris suicide attacks we’ve just experienced in the last days, military intervention—and specifically when the military intervention is occupying territory—that’s what prompts suicide terrorism more than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 I recall watching a documentary on the real Dad's Army a while ago and many of them were planning suicide attacks had the Germans occupied the UK. Was that Islam? It is ridiculous to try to pin it on the religion. But it is a very a neoconservative play. I think you will find that is the root of this argument here as Ally believes all that stuff. God forbid I pigeonhole here anyone but let's just say his and their views overlap pretty closely and leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 And the reason they blame it on the religion is to avoid discussing the real cause of it, the grievance. It is not an accident it is very calculated tactic to deflect from source of the grievance(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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