SKY TV : a tax on Scottish football ?

[Haggis_trap]

Sky pay 5 billion for the premier league rights.  That is an astonishing 10 million a game.
Each club gets between 100-150 million a year in return.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31386483

So : lets assume that Scotland has a population share of 8.4% of Sky Subscribers.
And also that a similar number of small pubs in Scotland pay ~20K (or more) for a Sky Sports TV subscription....
Is there not an argument that population % of this money should be getting returned to Scottish football ?
There is no reasons for cities like Burnley, Bournemouth or Hull to have bigger teams than Aberdeen or Edinburgh.

Sky TV has basically become a tax on Scottish football.
Clearly our product is deemed to be in-superior in comparison - more people watching EPL games means lower attendances <etc>
Hence the reasons kids on the street are more likely to be wearing a Man Utd or Chelsea top than Dundee Utd.
In addition I suspect most English teams now have much better facilities than in Scotland.
The entire system becomes self fulfilling and a depressing downward spiral.
The parachute payment for Sunderland next season will be larger than Celtics entire budget.
Now : Imagine if Scottish teams received a population share of SKY subscriptions....

So what can we do ? 
Could the Scottish government / SPL make a valid argument for some of this SKY money (which Scots pay!) to be re-invested directly into grass roots football in Scotland ?

Topic posted following a conversation on the train after Saturdays match!

Edited June 14, 2017 by Haggis_trap

[Ormond]

Wasting your time on this site with this. 

[Haggis_trap]

Questions also need to be asked about how much license payers money the BBC spend on Scottish / English football....
This is very much a tax so it is valid to ask how it is spent.

England : BBC pay £200 million for EPL over 3 years
i.e £66 million a year for highlights,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2931485/BBC-retain-Premier-League-rights-2019-ITV-fail-submit-bid.html

Scotland : £10 million for SPL over 4 years
i.e £2.5 million a year for highlights (should be closer to 6million if we got population share!)
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/spfl-delighted-confirm-new-four-7902508

[Alan]

Supply v demand?

English football is popular in Scotland.  You can't force a private company to spend money because you want them to.

People on this board are weakening Scottish football with their love of Sky and BT even though they are very vocal about how much they love Scotland.   

Have season tickets for English clubs.

Support English teams and pay for Sky & BT for English football.

Don't go to any Scottish domestic games only Scotland internationals.

Constantly put down the domestic game.

The actions don't fit in with their words.

 

[Haggis_trap]

^ Agree - SKY are a private company.
So forcing them to return a % of Scottish generated revenues directly back into the Scottish games would be complicated and require government support.  However it not unreasonable if the money goes back into grass roots for kids <etc>

What about the BBC ?
Very different situation given license fee is a tax (though on smaller scale).

 

 

[Parklife]

BBC's willingness to spend vast sums on EPL highlights, yet almost nothing on Scottish football is an outright disgrace. 

What Alan says above is partly correct. There are many people, including on this messageboard, who contribute nothing to the Scottish game. They say "I only support Scotland" or "Scottish football is shite", while sitting in their living room and giving Sky £100/month to plow in to the EPL. Fv*king arseholes. 

[Ormond]

6 minutes ago, Parklife said:

BBC's willingness to spend vast sums on EPL highlights, yet almost nothing on Scottish football is an outright disgrace. 

What Alan says above is partly correct. There are many people, including on this messageboard, who contribute nothing to the Scottish game. They say "I only support Scotland" or "Scottish football is shite", while sitting in their living room and giving Sky £100/month to plow in to the EPL. Fv*king arseholes. 

Spot on. Although you and I live far apart I bet there's not much between us with what I've pumped into St. Johnstone and you into Aberdeen respectively. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Ormond

[Haggis_trap]

^ Sadly just going to the pub and watching a game you indirectly pay for SKY TV....
And thus subsidy the English Premier league and Wayne Rooneys wages.
Even a small Scottish pub is paying £20K a year - some much more.

I don't have a SKY TV subscription but do occasionally pay £6.99 for a day pass specifically to watch my club team or a Scotland away games.
However even then only a tiny % of that money goes back into the Scottish game :-(

[Parklife]

8 minutes ago, Haggis_trap said:

^ Sadly just going to the pub and watching a game you indirectly pay for SKY TV....
And thus subsidy the English Premier league and Wayne Rooneys wages.
Even a small Scottish pub is paying £20K a year - some much more.

I don't have a SKY TV subscription but do occasionally pay £6.99 for a day pass specifically to watch my club team or a Scotland away games.
However even then only a tiny % of that money goes back into the Scottish game :-(

I don't go to a pub to watch English football either  

[andyD]

This is a bit silly as arguments go tbh.

The TV companies sell what people want.
A lot of people support their club side, but some just like to see the best football they can.

For the companies to give money from the EPL tv deal to scottish football wouldn't just be ridiculous, it'd be illegal. they have an obligation to shareholders, and funding something that has no connection to what they make their money from would very quickly be squashed and people would get fired.

I understand why scottish club fans are grumpy and jealous of the amount of money in the EPL (and nowadays the english championship too), but that's life. people pay for what people want, that doesnt make them arseholes and you can't force them to do otherwise.

I'm one of those who i guess contributes nothing to the scottish game, but my reasons aren't either of those mentioned. while i was last in scotland just 2 weeks ago, i live and work down south, so can't go to any games. i dont have a sky subscription and never will. my club side is an english championship side, but i barely get to see them either. that's just how life is sometimes.

If scottish football is to grow and get a greater share of the revenues available then it's just going to have to get more successful. ultimately that's what gets bum on seats and people tuning in. if celtic manage to get thru the initial groups in teh champions league.. if aberdeen and rangers can do something in the europa league that's start making a difference and get some of the profile back.

[Haggis_trap]

^ Just to be clear.  I am not jealous about the amount of money in EPL.
I am frustrated that a large percentage of that money is generated from Scottish households (via SKY / BBC licence fee) but not returned to the Scottish game.  This is a subtle but important distinction.

For example - imagine a small rural Scottish pub that pays 20K a year for the football rights.
Are we assuming that ~97% of their extra trade generated from having a SKY license is from showing EPL games ?
Because that is how the revenue generated when you buy each pint in that pub is eventually split.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Haggis_trap

[Parklife]

12 minutes ago, andyD said:

people pay for what people want, that doesnt make them arseholes 

It does in my book 

[andyD]

6 minutes ago, Haggis_trap said:

^ Just to be clear.  I am not jealous about the amount of money in EPL.
I am frustrated that a large percentage of that money being generated from Scottish households (via SKY / BBC licence fee) but not returned to the Scottish game.  This is a subtle but important distinction.

For example - imagine a small rural Scottish pub that pays 20K a year for the football rights.
Are we assuming that ~97% of their extra trade generated from having a SKY license is from showing EPL games ?
Because that is how the revenue generated when you buy each pint in that pub is eventually split.

Just because people buy Starbucks on Princes Street doesnt mean that the MacBeans in Aberdeen deserves profit share. People don't want MacBeans, they want Starbucks so that's what they pay for. (sorry, I'm sure they do want MacBeans. Hell, go to MacBeans everyone!)

The Scottish pub wouldn't do the same trade if if showed Scottish Premiership games, so it pays for the English Premiership. If it would do the same trade with the Scottish Premiership then that's what it would show.

You can't make businesses hurt themselves by not offering what people want.
And you can't force punters to like what you want them to like.

I understand it might seem a bit sad for Scottish money to be going to support another countries football league (or coffee house) but that's just how the world works and there's nothing to be done to change it. Well.. not short of a chinese style 'tv-frewall' or north korean control of whats on tv. All scottish clubs can do is offer a better product.

Things might change a bit over the next few years. Rangers are back in the top league, Hibs are back in the top league, so suddenly we've got a couple of big derbies back, a well as a team with spending money (whether they have it or not) to try and compete for the title. These things should help rating and hopefully help win better deals for tv down the road.

[Ormond]

Andy D in talking some of the biggest pish I've seen on here in a while.

[Haggis_trap]

^ @AndyD : That is not entirely true - if a Scottish pub wants to show SPL / Old Firm or Scottish International games to its clients then it needs to buy SKY.  The vast majority of that revenue then goes to the English premier league.

i.e Even if you buy McBeans the money goes to Starbucks.

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Haggis_trap

[andyD]

@Haggis_trap Ok, I follow you. That's fair in the Scottish pub example, I guess the problem is that while the 'Scottish pub that only shows Scottish games' example looks unfair, there's an incredibly small number of those in existence (if any) and within the context of what sky's selling as a whole. it probably barely registers.

At the end of the day, the SFA is the one at the table and it's them who should be getting the best possible deal, trying to back that up with numbers about viewer counts, pub licenses, advertisers and sponsorship deals, club progress in competitions, wider interest in derbies (e.g. big up the old firm maybe getting competitive sometime soon) etc. I don't think your population share stat works as a figure, because the same % of the population doesn't watch, and advertising revenue for example increases exponentially with a higher viewership, it's not a 1 viewer = £1 type of equation.

Could the SNP offer some kind of subsidy or exemption to SKY in order to get them to make a better deal for the SFA, or to donate money to Scottish grassroots football and thereby get extra, positive publicity. Possibly. I'm not sure I'd in favour of the government doing those kind of deals tho. I don't have sky because I don't like sky. Murdoch's a.. well you know what he is. So I don't want the government giving him tax money.

McDonalds did a deal with the SFA a couple of years back to provide strips for junior clubs and i'm perfectly fine with that. I'm not aware of any direct SNP involvement in it, tho ofc, the odd MSP popped up after saying how lovely it was.

But coming back to the 'what can we do?' question.. the answer really is not a lot. Have lots of kids! Odds are the more we have the more likely we are to have some talented ones who can raise the profile and the revenues.

 

[andyD]

2 hours ago, Ormond said:

Andy D in talking some of the biggest pish I've seen on here in a while.

Care to elaborate on what and why? It's a discussion forum after all

[Parklife]

5 minutes ago, andyD said:

Care to elaborate on what and why? It's a discussion forum after all

I'll start for Ormond... 

2 hours ago, andyD said:

This is a bit silly as arguments go tbh.

The TV companies sell what people want.

The BBC isn't a TV company attempting to make money, it's a public service broadcaster. A public Service Broadcaster who spunks hundreds of millions on MOTD, more on the FA Cup live matches and highlights. 

Their contribution to Scottish sport is shameful in comparison to what gets contributed to the game down south. It also has the double effect of, as well as financing the English game far more, of giving it greater prominence. Saturday night, prime time EPL highlights, while our game is relegated to 6pm (10:30pm if you want HD!) on a Sunday.

2 hours ago, andyD said:

A lot of people support their club side, but some just like to see the best football they can.

Well, that's simply not true. Otherwise it'd be La Liga and Bundesliga getting the most coverage on Scottish tv, rather than EPL. 

2 hours ago, andyD said:

For the companies to give money from the EPL tv deal to scottish football wouldn't just be ridiculous, it'd be illegal. they have an obligation to shareholders, and funding something that has no connection to what they make their money from would very quickly be squashed and people would get fired.

We can't legislate to improve our national sport? 

2 hours ago, andyD said:

I understand why scottish club fans are grumpy and jealous of the amount of money in the EPL (and nowadays the english championship too), but that's life. people pay for what people want, that doesnt make them arseholes and you can't force them to do otherwise.

I'm not jealous, im angry. Angry that it is almost the norm for folk to "support" teams in a foreign league. Angry that Scottish kids can't watch any Scottish football on free to air TV but can watch plenty of EPL. 

Children aren't born wanting to watch English football, they're conditioned in to doing so by our media and acceptance of it by swathes of the population. And yes, the people who just accept this and ably assist in it are indeed arseholes. 

2 hours ago, andyD said:

I'm one of those who i guess contributes nothing to the scottish game, but my reasons aren't either of those mentioned. while i was last in scotland just 2 weeks ago, i live and work down south, so can't go to any games. i dont have a sky subscription and never will. my club side is an english championship side, but i barely get to see them either. that's just how life is sometimes.

There are plenty ways to contribute to the Scottish game without going to games every week or two. If you don't want to, that's fine but living in England certainly isn't a barrier. 

2 hours ago, andyD said:

If scottish football is to grow and get a greater share of the revenues available then it's just going to have to get more successful.

Just by magic? We'll all just get better without further investment? Without improvements in participation, led by government and governing body support? 

2 hours ago, andyD said:

ultimately that's what gets bum on seats and people tuning in. if celtic manage to get thru the initial groups in teh champions league.. if aberdeen and rangers can do something in the europa league that's start making a difference and get some of the profile back.

Rangers got to the UEFA Cup final, Aberdeen got through the group stages, Celtic have been in the CL last 16. It makes hee haw difference long-term because the game is not promoted properly. There's no interest from the powers that be in making it more competitive, there's no interest in marketing it better, there's no interest from government in increasing interest or participation in our national sport, probably because folk like you just accept the outrageous position our game is in and are happy to say (and i paraphrase) "it's shite", "EPL is the best", "teams have to just get better" 

[McTeeko]

I've got Sky, had it for years. I love it for the EPL and La Liga.

I also go to a Scottish game every weekend, mostly Edinburgh City (home and away) and sometimes Dundee United or Hearts. I'm also entitled to a free season ticket for Edinburgh City due to being their youth coach but I don't take one, I'd rather pay my way in so that money gets spent on the club. 

Not missed a competitive Scotland home match since 2001 and have been 38 away matches. 

So what I really want to know is, am I an arsehole or no?!? ?

[Parklife]

 

Just now, McTeeko said:

So what I really want to know is, am I an arsehole or no?!? ?

Depends. Do you wear jogging bottoms? 

[McTeeko]

1 minute ago, Parklife said:

 

Depends. Do you wear jogging bottoms? 

? Knew that one was coming! Only surprise was that you beat Ormond to it. 

[scoobydoo]

It comes from the top. 

One of the reasons i gave up is the utter uselessness of the SFA.

is it not the case that they are so bereft of ideas they called the scottish leagues the exact same as the english ones. I don't know I've more or less lost interest.

 

I haven't lived in scotland for a few years bought dundee united tickets for kids but now can't even be ####ed doing that. That's more of a Stephen thompson problem though.

[scoobydoo]

Did Alan Hansen not get more from the EBC in one season than the SFA did? Thought I read it somewhere.

[Parklife]

2 minutes ago, scoobydoo said:

is it not the case that they are so bereft of ideas they called the scottish leagues the exact same as the english ones.

An utter fecking embarrassment. Although that wasn't the SFA, that was the SPFL (amalgamation of SPL and SFL)

[Haggis_trap]

6 minutes ago, Parklife said:

I'm not jealous, im angry. Angry that it is almost the norm for folk to "support" teams in a foreign league. Angry that Scottish kids can't watch any Scottish football on free to air TV but can watch plenty of EPL. 

Children aren't born wanting to watch English football, they're conditioned in to doing so by our media and acceptance of it by swathes of the population. And yes, the people who just accept this and ably assist in it are indeed arseholes.

^ This is an important but different point...
Watching Scotland and Premier League games on the BBC as a 12 year old kid (circa 1990) is what got me into football.

Unless parents have SKY in the home how many kids now get the opportunity to become Hearts / Thistle / Aberdeen / St Mirren fans ?
Or get to share the joy of seeing Scotland play a world qualifier ?
It is a real double whammy.