Dug-gone

[PapofGlencoe]

1 hour ago, shaddypeekey said:

  A fair proportion of Scottish Conservative voters will be Pro Indy

Doubt that.  Doesn't the polling suggest like 3% of something.

A progressive left of centre Scotland takes in the majority of opinion in this country.  No utopia of Keir Hardie, granted but it's more to the left than the rest of the UK.

Even at their high point the Tories are getting 28% of the vote (including many who are just voting against independence).  I don't think there's much evidence a more rightist approach would yield result.

 

I'm fairly pessimistic about indy right now but we don't need to believe every doom narrative there is. 

 

 

my own view is the Yes campaign pretty much got everything right bar a poor effort with the pensioners.  Managed to avoid Braveheartism on the whole which was key (mostly from enveloping a left internationalist agenda), and got the economic concept we're not too poor well ensconced in the minds of many who had previously thought otherwise.  The people budged but not enough, mostly due to old people.

Edited August 30, 2017 by PapofGlencoe

[ParisInAKilt]

Any future yes movement would do well to try and distance itself from left v right as much as possible. Be a movement for the 99%. Granted you won't change the mind of the many staunch unionists but the idea that an independent Scotland is for everyone regardless of political views should be drummed home. 

[giblet]

7 hours ago, EddardStark said:

Comes off the back of a five day Corbyn visit which by all accounts was very successful. I personally think she did a decent job from when she took over but her decision to focus on the SNP more than the Tories in the recent GE was a mistake. 

Not sure how you would define successful? He seemed to only talk to Labour activists, didnt engineer the large crowds he gets down South.  He also gave a mixed message on Labours Brexit strategy and he gaffed with his lack of understanding of Scotland having its own legal system. 

 

In respect of who is next, a good bet is Richard Leanord.  Never heard of him before last night but a lot of Labourites are suggesting he is the choice of the Left.  He is anti EU, Unionist (voted with the Tories against the the motion in the Scottish Parliament to not trigger Brexit) and is a Corbynite.  So brings some synergy with the Westminster party.

Edited August 30, 2017 by giblet

[aaid]

5 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Understandable that he's going after the most winnable seats.  However there appears to have been a lot of Labour voters who went Tory to take seats off the SNP, as Kezia pretty much advocated...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/807559/Kezia-Dugdale-Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independence-poll-Ruth-Davidson

 

That's true but winning seats off the SNP won't make Jeremy Corbyn PM

[ErsatzThistle]

This was one of Corbyn's meeting son his "tour"

Not exactly a big success. Most of the people there will be Labour members anyway.

[scotlad]

On 30/08/2017 at 2:32 PM, giblet said:

Not sure how you would define successful? He seemed to only talk to Labour activists, didnt engineer the large crowds he gets down South.  He also gave a mixed message on Labours Brexit strategy and he gaffed with his lack of understanding of Scotland having its own legal system. 

 

In respect of who is next, a good bet is Richard Leanord.  Never heard of him before last night but a lot of Labourites are suggesting he is the choice of the Left.  He is anti EU, Unionist (voted with the Tories against the the motion in the Scottish Parliament to not trigger Brexit) and is a Corbynite.  So brings some synergy with the Westminster party.

I know a lot of people like to think Corbyn is just badly briefed when it comes to Scotland but I think he knew what he was doing.  If he was briefed it was only to tell him that the press up here will let him away with a lot more than they do down south.  In England he's seen as a threat to the establishment; in Scotland he's seen as one of its potential saviours.

Leonard and Sarwar seem to be the only candidates at the moment.  Neither are especially inspiring, particularly the dull, machine politician that is Sarwar.

 

On 30/08/2017 at 9:33 AM, Third Lanark said:

Chance now for Labour in Scotland to become a real progressive force and stop deluded folk from seeing Tory as an alternative to SNP.

It's hard to see how much more progressive they can realistically be under the current constitutional arrangement.  Much of what was in Labour's GE2017 manifesto is already in place in Scotland.  The things that aren't - like the publically owned railways and the national investment bank - can't be delivered by any Holyrood administration.

To me, it makes sense for them to soften their position on independence.  I don't even me become a full-blow pro-independence party, but why not at least allow MPs and MSPs to publically back independence if they wish, like with Brexit?

Alternatively they could try and become the progressive unionist party in Scotland; supporting universalism in Scotland while opposing independence.  That essentially means maintaining and trying to improve what we've already got.  At that point people will look at the competence of their leader and who he or she has around them and that could be a problem - the talent amongst Slab's ranks is slight indeed.

Or they could just decided to stay in the political middle ground, going round and round and round in circles - like they are now.

 

 

[antidote]

22 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

This was one of Corbyn's meeting son his "tour"

Not exactly a big success. Most of the people there will be Labour members anyway.

Most of them will be his entourage  up from London. 

[Auld_Reekie]

Scottish Labour stuck between a rock and a hard place. Don't want to shout about Unionism for fear of being branded a British nationalism, but staying quiet let's Ruth Davidson mouth off to all and sundry. And IMO, Davidson's position aligns better with unionists who are soft nationalists of the British variety. And that there, is the story of GE2017. SNP were always going to have a downer after 2015 but Labour's weakest was Scottish Conservative strength.

Scottish Labour don't want to talk about the constitution but that's pretty much the defining topic of our generation and it's utterly pointless sticking their head in the sand and trying to avoid it. Their biggest mistake is allowing the Tories to fill the constitutional vacuum. They need to embrace the constitution and find their voice, whether it's for the Union or bailing and backing independence. It's a mess of their own making but they've been making this bed for decades so I've little sympathy for them.

Ironically, their insistence on a separate Scottish party is also part of their impotence. They'll continually be at odds with the wider party with different priorities, different policy opinion, different decision makers making it hugely difficult to work as a coherent UK wide party. Can even see it now, it's like two different parties at times. And if they had any sense, they'd see the correlation with Scotland in the United Kingdom. Do they value their independence or can they practice what they try to preach?

The sooner they draw the connection between the importance of their own independence and that of Scotland, the better. 

[kumnio]

Kezia was an incompetent useless fvck wit. She was the worst labour leader of my life, if she goes into oblivion then it would be good, absolutely no redeeming features at all 

[Toepoke]

The crazy thing is if Scottish Labour put forward even a neutral stance on independence they'd probably gain enough votes to knock the SNP out of power and take a second independence referendum off the table for the foreseeable...

Edited September 1, 2017 by Toepoke

[Toepoke]

Just heard that Richard Leonard chap on the news today for the first time. I'd no idea that he was English. A sign of his much ScottIsh Labour have been decimated in recent years?...

 

[Guest flumax]

1 hour ago, Toepoke said:

Just heard that Richard Leonard chap on the news today for the first time. I'd no idea that he was English. A sign of his much ScottIsh Labour have been decimated in recent years?...

 

Or I sign that anyone from any heritage/background can rise and achieve the highest levels in Scotland 

[Toepoke]

3 minutes ago, flumax said:

Or I sign that anyone from any heritage/background can rise and achieve the highest levels in Scotland 

Very true, although I see Sarwar has entered the race, so that's two privately educated guys bidding to be Scottish Labour leader. 

 

[aaid]

1 hour ago, flumax said:

Or I sign that anyone from any heritage/background can rise and achieve the highest levels in Scotland 

Getting a gig as a Labour MSP on the list isn't exactly that difficult these days.

[PapofGlencoe]

deary me, that's a terribly poor line up for Leader.

The party of John Smith, Donald Dewar, Robertson, Alexanders, Des Brown, John Reid, Connarty you could go on...

I know its been said plenty but what a dearth in talent.  

Sarwar has no gravitas whatsoever.  Just because he's a Muslim and it fits some media narrative about first minority leader doesn't make him any bright spark.  

Edited September 4, 2017 by PapofGlencoe

[ironbrew]

On 30/8/2017 at 2:25 PM, ParisInAKilt said:

Any future yes movement would do well to try and distance itself from left v right as much as possible. Be a movement for the 99%. Granted you won't change the mind of the many staunch unionists but the idea that an independent Scotland is for everyone regardless of political views should be drummed home. 

Agree with this. Priority should be independence then let folk vote as they want. Understand people wanting to see Labour beat but some people seem to have voted Yes or for SNP after to get a further left party than Labour rather than to get independence. There are lots of Scots who`d happily live in an independent Scotland provided they can vote for a full range of parties like people elsewhere in Europe. Was great to leave labour party in turmoil but not if it means thousands of voters go back to them and their London masters at the first sign of discontent.

[RenfrewBlue]

On 04/09/2017 at 4:00 PM, PapofGlencoe said:

deary me, that's a terribly poor line up for Leader.

The party of John Smith, Donald Dewar, Robertson, Alexanders, Des Brown, John Reid, Connarty you could go on...

I know its been said plenty but what a dearth in talent.  

Sarwar has no gravitas whatsoever.  Just because he's a Muslim and it fits some media narrative about first minority leader doesn't make him any bright spark.  

Sarwar comes over as a total idiot. He makes Dugdale look intelligent. 

His religion and racial background are utterly immaterial in this. 

He'd be the gift that keeps on giving to the blue Nazis. 

[Scunnered]

On 8/29/2017 at 11:06 PM, ErsatzThistle said:

Right now old man Sarwar will be on the phone pushing his complete dimwit of a son into standing for the leadership. He'd be great from an SNP point of view.

Neil Findlay may struggle to get the nominations of his fellow Labour MSP's. In parliament he's considered by his "comrades" to be an idiot with a big mouth and a very high opinion of himself. He's also a coward who didn't own up when caught out calling Nicola Sturgeon a liar in parliament and refuses to publicly admit that he's pro-Brexit. 

Could see Iain Gray with his big ego standing again but don't think he'll win it.

I suppose the one blessing in this board dying is that the rest of us will be saved from ever seeing your ramblings ever again.