Scotland vs Malta

[andyD]

Just now, Shed_Tartan_Army_Yeah said:

Goal difference is still a major part of this group if we draw the Slovenia game. I thought the team and management would have worked that out but the intensity seemed to drop towards the end of the game which was frustrating.

In order to turn the goal difference around, would we not have needed to win 7-0 against Malta?
Is it realistic to be frustrated that we didn't try and score 5 in the last 20 minutes?

Just wondering if you're setting your bar in the right place.

[Marky]

2 hours ago, DoonTheSlope said:

Can you please clarify what is not a must win qualifier

Erm....

Playing your last game when you're 4 points clear at the top of the section.

Playing your second last game when you're more than 6 points off qualification.

Shall I go on?

 

[McDange]

Job was done. One game at a time, the classic Scotland way. 

2 very tricky ties ahead in the next month. We can only do our bid. Surely we're due a bit of luck though... 

[adamntg]

5 hours ago, slasher said:

Bully for you. I paid double that (season ticket) and that's too much. Frankly the cut price tickets are a piss take imo but good luck to you ?

They're not cut-price, that was the SSC price and was announced at the start of the campaign.  How did the season ticket prices work out?

[Toepoke]

53 minutes ago, Shed_Tartan_Army_Yeah said:

Goal difference is still a major part of this group if we draw the Slovenia game. I thought the team and management would have worked that out but the intensity seemed to drop towards the end of the game which was frustrating.

 

I really hope this doesn't happen but if you presume England win their remaining games and Malta lose their remaining games:

If we beat Slovakia (by 1 goal) and draw with Slovenia we end up on same points as Slovakia - we drop to third on goal difference by 3 goals....

 

What scoreline have you assumed in the Slovakia - Malta game?

[adamntg]

4 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Slovakia is £30 for the West. Prices were set when season tickets went on sale. I don't see how this is a surprise to people.

I paid £27 SSC price.  Cannae really argue with that.

£42 for England - a bit steep.

[Caledonian Craig]

one of the questions in the SSC questionairre was do you agree with tiered ticket pricing and I said no. Not sure if I added in that points should also be awarded for the low key games and friendlies ie home to Canada a few months ago - even if it is half a point. It may act as an incentive to attend those games.

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, Shed_Tartan_Army_Yeah said:

Goal difference is still a major part of this group if we draw the Slovenia game. I thought the team and management would have worked that out but the intensity seemed to drop towards the end of the game which was frustrating.

 

I really hope this doesn't happen but if you presume England win their remaining games and Malta lose their remaining games:

If we beat Slovakia (by 1 goal) and draw with Slovenia we end up on same points as Slovakia - we drop to third on goal difference by 3 goals....

 

If we beat Slovakia and draw with Slovenia then 18 points (12 points which will count towards being among the 8 best runners up) will not be enough for a playoff unless some very strange results happen. 

20 points might not even be enough if other results don't go our way. 

Goal difference could be crucial when it comes to deciding who the worst runner up is but goals against Malta won't count for that so last night's game was all about the 3 points for me. 

To give ourselves any chance of a playoff we need to win our last 2 games, simple as that. 

Unless Slovenia get something at Wembley, they will have no realistic chance of a playoff, even if they beat us so if we beat Slovakia (a big ask) then we will be going to Slovenia to play a deflated team. We should be looking to go there and win.

 

[Texas Pete]

25 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

one of the questions in the SSC questionairre was do you agree with tiered ticket pricing and I said no. Not sure if I added in that points should also be awarded for the low key games and friendlies ie home to Canada a few months ago - even if it is half a point. It may act as an incentive to attend those games.

Or an incentive to buy a ticket and not turn up?

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, Texas Pete said:

Or an incentive to buy a ticket and not turn up?

Perhaps but it is still money in the coffers. In any case I am sure (with thought) there is a way around that. Whereas you are given a card or something and when you enter the ground you get your card stamped to qualify for your half point or something like that.

[Texas Pete]

2 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Perhaps but it is still money in the coffers. In any case I am sure (with thought) there is a way around that. Whereas you are given a card or something and when you enter the ground you get your card stamped to qualify for your half point or something like that.

True. 

Sadly, there is just no way to get decent crowds on a Sunday or Monday night against the so called lesser teams. A points system could help but I don't think charging the same price for all games would. 

Even if you charged £10 and awarded a point for last night's game how many more thousand would have turned up? A couple maybe but it wouldn't have made much of a difference I don't think  

 

[macy37]

See the season ticket? I'm not aware...do you have to pay to be a Ssc member to qualify for this offer or could anyone pick the offer up prior to the qualification starting?

[Texas Pete]

9 minutes ago, macy37 said:

See the season ticket? I'm not aware...do you have to pay to be a Ssc member to qualify for this offer or could anyone pick the offer up prior to the qualification starting?

Only SSC members can buy the season ticket. 

[macy37]

1 minute ago, Texas Pete said:

Only SSC members can buy the season ticket. 

So the price of that membership needs built into the ticket pricing too, or at least part of it.

[Texas Pete]

2 minutes ago, macy37 said:

So the price of that membership needs built into the ticket pricing too, or at least part of it.

Not sure I agree with that logic. 

The main benefits of joining the SSC are a guaranteed home ticket and access to away tickets.  And a daft t-shirt. ?

A discount on tickets is just a bonus. 

[macy37]

1 minute ago, Texas Pete said:

Not sure I agree with that logic. 

The main benefits of joining the SSC are a guaranteed home ticket and access to away tickets.  And a daft t-shirt. ?

A discount on tickets is just a bonus. 

But you're still paying to get the privilege of first pop at reduced prices tickets. Oh and a t shirt that'll be about £3 cost to the SFA. 

Out of interest do they waiver postage/booking fee?

[Texas Pete]

4 minutes ago, macy37 said:

But you're still paying to get the privilege of first pop at reduced prices tickets. Oh and a t shirt that'll be about £3 cost to the SFA. 

Out of interest do they waiver postage/booking fee?

I don't really get what you mean though. Are you saying members should get a discount because they have already paid £55? They do get a discount. It won't total £55 though over a campaign. 

I can't remember about a booking fee. Definitely need to pay postage though but if you get the season ticket you only need to pay for postage once instead of potentially 5 times if you go to all home matches. 

[macy37]

40 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

I don't really get what you mean though. Are you saying members should get a discount because they have already paid £55? They do get a discount. It won't total £55 though over a campaign. 

I can't remember about a booking fee. Definitely need to pay postage though but if you get the season ticket you only need to pay for postage once instead of potentially 5 times if you go to all home matches. 

I'm just highlighting that the reduction in ticket price isn't the real bottom value that they punt the ticket to you all at. If it's £55 over the year and there's only 3 games you purchase tickets for the price of the t shirt along with the chance to possibly buy away tickets means what a cost of around £10 per ticket that you do buy for the home games. Add that to the actual purchase price and there's your real figure of the tickets that you do purchase. Less of a cost to add if it's a season ticket package with 4/5 games though.

[Texas Pete]

54 minutes ago, macy37 said:

I'm just highlighting that the reduction in ticket price isn't the real bottom value that they punt the ticket to you all at. If it's £55 over the year and there's only 3 games you purchase tickets for the price of the t shirt along with the chance to possibly buy away tickets means what a cost of around £10 per ticket that you do buy for the home games. Add that to the actual purchase price and there's your real figure of the tickets that you do purchase. Less of a cost to add if it's a season ticket package with 4/5 games though.

I get your point but I'm guessing the guys that administer the SSC are not volunteers are will get paid? Who/what pays for that? The membership fee I'm guessing.

I don't mind paying £25 or so per year as I go to away games. By the time you figure in the discounts (you also get 10-15% or something off Scotland tops) then you're probably only paying £30 or something in real terms if you go to all of the home games.

 

[Shed_Tartan_Army_Yeah]

21 hours ago, andyD said:

In order to turn the goal difference around, would we not have needed to win 7-0 against Malta?
Is it realistic to be frustrated that we didn't try and score 5 in the last 20 minutes?

Just wondering if you're setting your bar in the right place.

I wasn't looking for us to make up the full difference alone via the Malta game. When we beat Slovakia, every goal we beat them by our difference is closed by 2 (if we beat them 2-0 our goal difference goes level with theirs). Would have been nice to get another couple against Malta to close the difference a bit and make that part of the task a bit easier.

 

All assuming we beat Slovakia of course. If we don't then this all doesn't matter. 

[Orraloon]

21 hours ago, Shed_Tartan_Army_Yeah said:

Goal difference is still a major part of this group if we draw the Slovenia game. I thought the team and management would have worked that out but the intensity seemed to drop towards the end of the game which was frustrating.

 

I really hope this doesn't happen but if you presume England win their remaining games and Malta lose their remaining games:

If we beat Slovakia (by 1 goal) and draw with Slovenia we end up on same points as Slovakia - we drop to third on goal difference by 3 goals....

 

Totally agree. We should have been going for more goals in the last part of both the last two games. Especially the Lithuania game as they could also count in decided worst runner up.

Bring back McLeish, He knows how goal difference works.

 

[Orraloon]

19 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

If we beat Slovakia and draw with Slovenia then 18 points (12 points which will count towards being among the 8 best runners up) will not be enough for a playoff unless some very strange results happen. 

20 points might not even be enough if other results don't go our way. 

Goal difference could be crucial when it comes to deciding who the worst runner up is but goals against Malta won't count for that so last night's game was all about the 3 points for me. 

To give ourselves any chance of a playoff we need to win our last 2 games, simple as that. 

Unless Slovenia get something at Wembley, they will have no realistic chance of a playoff, even if they beat us so if we beat Slovakia (a big ask) then we will be going to Slovenia to play a deflated team. We should be looking to go there and win.

 

I wouldn't put Bosnia losing to Belgium and Cyprus drawing with, or beating, Greece in "the very strange results" category.

They are by no means guaranteed but that doesn't matter, they are possible. Scotland scoring more goals in the previous 2 games would have done us no harm even if the above results don't happen.

It's the fact that we didn't even seem to try to go for more goals that annoys me. It shows me, that our management team don't even realise that it could (it doesn't matter how unlikely that "could" is) go down to goal difference.

 

[andyD]

20 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

If we beat Slovakia and draw with Slovenia then 18 points (12 points which will count towards being among the 8 best runners up) will not be enough for a playoff unless some very strange results happen. 

20 points might not even be enough if other results don't go our way. 

Goal difference could be crucial when it comes to deciding who the worst runner up is but goals against Malta won't count for that so last night's game was all about the 3 points for me. 

To give ourselves any chance of a playoff we need to win our last 2 games, simple as that. 

Unless Slovenia get something at Wembley, they will have no realistic chance of a playoff, even if they beat us so if we beat Slovakia (a big ask) then we will be going to Slovenia to play a deflated team. We should be looking to go there and win.

 

Likely important 2nd place teams:

Group D:
Wales or Ireland. Wales currently ahead, but have to travel to Georgia (who they drew with at home), then play Ireland in the final game. They've only won 1 game outside games against the bottom side. So 6 points seems highly unlikely. 4 at best is probable which would leave them on 18, which is 12 for qualification purposes.
Ireland have bottom side Moldova then Wales. Even if they take all 6 points, they're on 19, 13 for qualification.

Group H:
Bosnia or Greece. Bosnia currently ahead, but they play Belgium and Estonia, Probably only 3 points there. Finishing them on 17, which is 11.
Greece will probably finish 2nd as they're on 13 with 2 easy games left, so 19 for them, meaning 13 for qualifying.

Group E is an absolute mess, with it being very close between the top 3 and games left to play between them. I won't even hazard a guess what will happen there.

But with the likely results of Groups D and H, the 2nd place guys would be from:

Ireland / Greece - 13
Wales - 12
Bosnia - 11

We're currently on 14, we need 2 wins to come 2nd in the first place, so finish on 20, that's 14 for qualifying. If we finish 2nd we're safely above the 2nd place from both of those groups.

Sure, bizarre things could happen..
The undefeated Belgians (who won 4-0 in the first game) could suddenly lose to Bosnia.
The Welsh who have only won one game could suddenly win 2 difficult games in a row.

But these would be the (very) strange results. If things proceed halfway sensibly in the last 2 games then we're absolutely fine as long as we win our own games.

You start your post with "beat Slovakia and draw with Slovenia", that's not enough to finish 2nd, so playoff don't come into it. We'd be on 18, and Slovakia who are currently on 15 will beat Malta and be ahead of us on goal difference. It's 20 points or nothing, and if we hit 20 points then there are other groups 2nd place teams who will finish with lesser totals.

[andyD]

38 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It's the fact that we didn't even seem to try to go for more goals that annoys me. It shows me, that our management team don't even realise that it could (it doesn't matter how unlikely that "could" is) go down to goal difference.

What do you count as 'go for more goals' ?

Against Lithuania we won 3-0.. more goals than any of us expected before the game, and Lithuania has only left in more than 2 in one other game at that point. We had 23 shots in the game, 7 on target. That seems like trying to score goals to me.

Against Malta we upped it, 25 shots, 10 on target. We were unlucky not to score more.. Phillips run and cut back to Griffiths, with McArthurs follow up.. a good save from the keeper for Forrest's half-volley into the bottom corner.. another good save from the keeper for Phillips long range curler into the far corner.. yet another good save from the keeper for Forrest's left foot shot from the top of the area.. Griffiths fluffing his shot when sent thru by Morrison. On another day half of those go in and it's 5-0.

Maybe it's worth tally up goals against Malta to give you some context.
Against Malta:
we scored 7 and gained +6 goal difference,
England scored 6 for +6,
Slovakia scored 3 for +2 with 1 games to play,
Slovenia score 3 for +3.

We put Malta to the sword more than anyone else in the group. That's just a fact.
And as i already said, Lithuania had only conceded more than 2 goals once when we put 3 past them.

We tried to score goals.. we did score goals.

[Orraloon]

26 minutes ago, andyD said:

Likely important 2nd place teams:

Group D:
Wales or Ireland. Wales currently ahead, but have to travel to Georgia (who they drew with at home), then play Ireland in the final game. They've only won 1 game outside games against the bottom side. So 6 points seems highly unlikely. 4 at best is probable which would leave them on 18, which is 12 for qualification purposes.
Ireland have bottom side Moldova then Wales. Even if they take all 6 points, they're on 19, 13 for qualification.

Group H:
Bosnia or Greece. Bosnia currently ahead, but they play Belgium and Estonia, Probably only 3 points there. Finishing them on 17, which is 11.
Greece will probably finish 2nd as they're on 13 with 2 easy games left, so 19 for them, meaning 13 for qualifying.

Group E is an absolute mess, with it being very close between the top 3 and games left to play between them. I won't even hazard a guess what will happen there.

But with the likely results of Groups D and H, the 2nd place guys would be from:

Ireland / Greece - 13
Wales - 12
Bosnia - 11

We're currently on 14, we need 2 wins to come 2nd in the first place, so finish on 20, that's 14 for qualifying. If we finish 2nd we're safely above the 2nd place from both of those groups.

Sure, bizarre things could happen..
The undefeated Belgians (who won 4-0 in the first game) could suddenly lose to Bosnia.
The Welsh who have only won one game could suddenly win 2 difficult games in a row.

But these would be the (very) strange results. If things proceed halfway sensibly in the last 2 games then we're absolutely fine as long as we win our own games.

You start your post with "beat Slovakia and draw with Slovenia", that's not enough to finish 2nd, so playoff don't come into it. We'd be on 18, and Slovakia who are currently on 15 will beat Malta and be ahead of us on goal difference. It's 20 points or nothing, and if we hit 20 points then there are other groups 2nd place teams who will finish with lesser totals.

I think I agree with all of that except that I don't think I would put Greece away to Cyprus, in the easy game category.