Rangers are Rocking; Scottys Financial insight inside.

[macy37]

2 hours ago, Bristolhibby said:

Sometimes a statement has to be made.

We all know it actually means nothing to the teams that were cheated against. The teams that lost cup finals, or missed out in European spots, or lost when they should have won in random Saturdays.

Those memories have been stolen.

And for that reason I'd like to see them voided.

Old Co, as we are reminded doesn't exist anymore so nobody can complain if a non existand club gets its titles and cups stripped.

I have a feeling this one will have legs, much the same way the SFA tried to gerrymander newco into the top tier of the SPFL. It was the other clubs that ensured newco were lucky enough to start at the bottom tier.

J

There will be no "legs", that is certain. People may wish sanctions to happen but the people at the top don't do difficult decisions.

[scoobydoo]

21 hours ago, slasher said:

There doesn't have to be legal precedent here. Football has its own code of conduct and clubs/individuals are often punished in accordance with it for matters that would never reach a court of law. The authorities could easily strip titles on the charge of bringing the game into disrepute imo. 

Exactly. The articles of the SFA have used this before with Livingston haven't they? If so, then is a precedent and it should be followed. 

[vanderark14]

On 05/07/2017 at 9:43 PM, Dalgety Bay TA said:

Rangers bought players on wages they couldn't normally afford to pay but could get them by giving the players EBTs, thus avoiding the tax element of those wages. 

Playing Devils Advocate here, how much difference is there between that and any other club signing players and paying them wages they also can't afford and running up large debts in doing so? 

Is every club who is in debt not effectively cheating by paying more than they can affo

[vanderark14]

https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/dave-king-message

we received no benefit from EBTs

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2161850/Rangers-crisis-Dave-King-apologises.html

i apologise because we gained an advantage

[stevenmcn]

On 06/07/2017 at 4:59 PM, Diamond Scot said:

Unlawful is different from illegal as you have pointed out. I have no strong opinion on the case. I just think that it weakens peoples arguments when they use incorrect terms.  

Rangers used a scheme that meant they could sign players they otherwise couldnt afford. I am saying that in real terms this is no different from clubs using money they dont have to sign players they cant afford. 

If Rangers had the money to pay back the EBTs after the authorities decided that tax should have been paid on it then they would have done so. As other clubs have done who used the same scheme.

The problem here is that Rangers didnt have the money and subsequently went into admin and went bust. The authorities have already punished them for that. (Regardless of the severity of the punishment)

There is no basis to strip Rangers of titles in law. 

Not disagreeing with your post but I thought I remembered something from a couple of years back that basically said that the side letters essentially made the contracts of the players involved null and void because their contracts were different from how they were actually paid, or something like that. I might be talking crap though.

[Scotty CTA]

The side letters are proof that they were at it.

[Diamond Scot]

12 hours ago, stevenmcn said:

Not disagreeing with your post but I thought I remembered something from a couple of years back that basically said that the side letters essentially made the contracts of the players involved null and void because their contracts were different from how they were actually paid, or something like that. I might be talking crap though.

From memory the side letters were found to show that Rangers breached the rule to declare all earnings of players to the SPL. This was a breach but its a breach that the authorities have already dealt with. Nothing new has changed since then in terms of that rule. 

Its all very well people wanting punishment and saying no precedent is required but the SPFL and SFA need to follow their own rules. Despite what people think they cant make it up as they go along. 

 

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

From memory the side letters were found to show that Rangers breached the rule to declare all earnings of players to the SPL. This was a breach but its a breach that the authorities have already dealt with. Nothing new has changed since then in terms of that rule. 

Its all very well people wanting punishment and saying no precedent is required but the SPFL and SFA need to follow their own rules. Despite what people think they cant make it up as they go along. 

 

And .. despite us all believing that Rangers would never have signed certain players without the EBT incentive you would have to prove it 

[Parklife]

10 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

And .. despite us all believing that Rangers would never have signed certain players without the EBT incentive you would have to prove it 

Their ex-chairman has stated under oath that EBT's enabled them to get players that they wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford. 

Its already proven. 

[phart]

If the EBT's function wasn't to get a sporting advantage then why do it? Altruism?

[Ally Bongo]

56 minutes ago, phart said:

If the EBT's function wasn't to get a sporting advantage then why do it? Altruism?

"Put simply, the Murray Group tax scheme helped David Murray reduce his overall investment into Oldco while simultaneously reducing any reliance on increased third-party bank finance"

[thistle do nicely]

Well Murray thought his 30K was more important than Airdrie's history, so he probably won't mind losing his titles.  Especially since he felt we taking advantage of his good nature.

As such a lovely "do the right thing" kind of chap, he'll probably volunteer to hand them back

[phart]

1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

"Put simply, the Murray Group tax scheme helped David Murray reduce his overall investment into Oldco while simultaneously reducing any reliance on increased third-party bank finance"

That's a quote from Dave King is it not?

Dependent on the axiom " Every single player that was signed during that period would have been signed whether the Murray Group tax scheme was in place or not."

 

[Ally Bongo]

6 minutes ago, phart said:

That's a quote from Dave King is it not?

Dependent on the axiom " Every single player that was signed during that period would have been signed whether the Murray Group tax scheme was in place or not."

 

Yes and thats why it was in italics so dont shoot the messenger

This will be the type barriers for trying to "prove" Rangers would not have won the titles without the EBTs 

Merely playing Devil's Advocaat .............................

 

[phart]

59 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Yes and thats why it was in italics so dont shoot the messenger

This will be the type barriers for trying to "prove" Rangers would not have won the titles without the EBTs 

Merely playing Devil's Advocaat .............................

 

You don't have to prove that though. If you cheat in a race it's irrelevant whether you would have won anyway. The point is the cheating.

Now is creating an artificially high "cap space" by reneging on your tax duties cheating? That's the question.

[ironbrew]

Whatever happens with Rangers titles Scottish football should surely be looking to future to prevent clubs from flouting laws again. Have there been any changes (new laws/rules, more control and inspections..) to prevent repeats of Rangers case or even Gretna, Romanov Hearts, etc. Could measures not be put in place to curtail financial cheating before trophies are won to prevent trophy stripping decades after?

[slasher]

5 hours ago, phart said:

That's a quote from Dave King is it not?

Dependent on the axiom " Every single player that was signed during that period would have been signed whether the Murray Group tax scheme was in place or not."

 

Totally contradicts his previous statement where he apologizes for creating sporting advantage. An absolute cock of a guy running a football club on the hoof!

[RenfrewBlue]

On 05/07/2017 at 1:13 PM, Ormond said:

 

Firstly, apologies to Ormond. Bloody quote function wants to include you for no reason. ?

Saw a discussion on Facebook last night and some Rangers fans were discussing campaigning for the inclusion of World War 2 football results to be included in the official records. 

They were using the precedent that First World War results are included. There was also something about a Celtic player having his WW2 goals included in his official stats. It was very late so I can't remember his name. 

I hadn't realised that Rangers had dominated that period quite so much. I think the main driver was in getting a 10 in a row record out of it, to be honest. 

And obviously winding up the Celtic fans. 

Anyone know what the official reason for not including them is? Were they just not official competitions? 

[Grim Jim]

34 minutes ago, RenfrewBlue said:

Firstly, apologies to Ormond. Bloody quote function wants to include you for no reason. ?

Saw a discussion on Facebook last night and some Rangers fans were discussing campaigning for the inclusion of World War 2 football results to be included in the official records. 

They were using the precedent that First World War results are included. There was also something about a Celtic player having his WW2 goals included in his official stats. It was very late so I can't remember his name. 

I hadn't realised that Rangers had dominated that period quite so much. I think the main driver was in getting a 10 in a row record out of it, to be honest. 

And obviously winding up the Celtic fans. 

Anyone know what the official reason for not including them is? Were they just not official competitions? 

There was no "Scottish League" in WW2.   Rangers won all the "Southern League" competitions held in its place.   Usually Aberdeen, Dundee and for some reason Rangers'A' played in the "North Eastern League".   Reason for no Scottish league I suppose, to reduce travel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940–41_in_Scottish_football

I've just seen there that Scotland played England in games that are off the record too.

[RenfrewBlue]

1 hour ago, Grim Jim said:

There was no "Scottish League" in WW2.   Rangers won all the "Southern League" competitions held in its place.   Usually Aberdeen, Dundee and for some reason Rangers'A' played in the "North Eastern League".   Reason for no Scottish league I suppose, to reduce travel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940–41_in_Scottish_football

I've just seen there that Scotland played England in games that are off the record too.

Thanks Jim. The split league league, to me anyway, is justification enough not to include them. It will however make an interesting argument for the more "devout" followers. ? 

[Ormond]

3 minutes ago, RenfrewBlue said:

Thanks Jim. The split league league, to me anyway, is justification enough not to include them. It will however make an interesting argument for the majority of braindead Huns.? 

Yourself excepted of course. 

Actually, that's pretty cvnty of me. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Ormond

[Parklife]

22 hours ago, phart said:

You don't have to prove that though. If you cheat in a race it's irrelevant whether you would have won anyway. The point is the cheating.

Now is creating an artificially high "cap space" by reneging on your tax duties cheating? That's the question.

Indeed. Bizarre logic from some folk who seem to think proving Rangers wouldn't have won is required. Do we have to prove that Lance Armstrong wouldn't have won his TDF's? No, of fecking course not!  

Edited July 9, 2017 by Parklife

[RenfrewBlue]

5 hours ago, Ormond said:

Yourself excepted of course. 

Actually, that's pretty cvnty of me. 

I was being nice because I need to sit next to some of them at Ibrox.

To be fair I think a lot of them are only doing it to wind the Celtic fans up. Which is fine for me. ? 

5 hours ago, Ormond said:

Yourself excepted of course. 

Actually, that's pretty cvnty of me. 

6 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

 

[phart]

2 hours ago, Parklife said:

Indeed. Bizarre logic from some folk who seem to think proving Rangers wouldn't have won is required. Do we have to prove that Lance Armstrong wouldn't have won his TDF's? No, of fecking course not!  

That tax blog eventually vindicated as well. see my signature.

[Chief]

Rangers' situation is a bit more like an sprinter robbing a bank and using the money to pay for the best coach to get the best results to be fair.