aljay Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm going to take the unusual step of sticking up for Rangers here. Their debt in the latter days of the Murray era was serviceable. The only problem was the EBTs which looked like a black-hole. As soon as Sir Minty could no longer underwrite that £50-£100M liability, they had a huge problem. However, RFC were not the only club in the UK doing EBTs. But they were the one club or company that HMRC seemed to have a raging boner for. The Rangers EBTs were fairly unsophisticated as these things go and, from speaking to people in that industry, were not brilliantly set out (what with being planned by a porn-director rather than y'know actual expert tax accountants). Yet at every tribunal, hearing and judgement, they have been held up to be legal. Hindsight is a marvelous thing, but in 2012 you could have bought Rangers as a going concern for £1. £24m debt on a £40m turnover with £40m of assets. With a decent business plan (a la CFC/DUFC buying low/young, selling on) and a halfway sympathetic bank, that debt could have been written down over a 5-10 year period to a nominal amount. Without the HMRC debt, there would have been no shortage of people prepared to take this on. Problem is that with the HMRC liability refusing to go away, Lloyds pushed the sale through to OfftheRadar Whyte and the woes since have been due to the succession of charlatans who've been lining their pockets and making disastrously short-termist decisions. Her Majesty's RCs have done for the Rangers. Ably assisted by every board for the last 10 years. The (majority of) fans haven't been critical enough through this period despite everyone else warning them, and now it's too late again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) I'm going to take the unusual step of sticking up for Rangers here. Their debt in the latter days of the Murray era was serviceable. The only problem was the EBTs which looked like a black-hole. As soon as Sir Minty could no longer underwrite that £50-£100M liability, they had a huge problem. However, RFC were not the only club in the UK doing EBTs. But they were the one club or company that HMRC seemed to have a raging boner for. The Rangers EBTs were fairly unsophisticated as these things go and, from speaking to people in that industry, were not brilliantly set out (what with being planned by a porn-director rather than y'know actual expert tax accountants). Yet at every tribunal, hearing and judgement, they have been held up to be legal. Hindsight is a marvelous thing, but in 2012 you could have bought Rangers as a going concern for £1. £24m debt on a £40m turnover with £40m of assets. With a decent business plan (a la CFC/DUFC buying low/young, selling on) and a halfway sympathetic bank, that debt could have been written down over a 5-10 year period to a nominal amount. Without the HMRC debt, there would have been no shortage of people prepared to take this on. Problem is that with the HMRC liability refusing to go away, Lloyds pushed the sale through to OfftheRadar Whyte and the woes since have been due to the succession of charlatans who've been lining their pockets and making disastrously short-termist decisions. Her Majesty's RCs have done for the Rangers. Ably assisted by every board for the last 10 years. The (majority of) fans haven't been critical enough through this period despite everyone else warning them, and now it's too late again. ?Edit: Gotcha now. Still hungover . Edited January 22, 2015 by Charlie Endell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgowmancity Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I think you are confusing having no debt with having serviceable debt. Two very different things in my opinion. Many of the clubs you list have benefitted from investment or the opportunity to write off debt. However, for many, before they were in this position, they had serviceable debt. MCFC never had, they were hours from going out of business before the Abu Dhabi money came in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Nous sommes Charlie!!! Nous sommes en crise. Edited January 22, 2015 by Charlie Endell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljay Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Her Majesty's RCs have done for the Rangers. ? Edit: Gotcha now. Still hungover . ...that might have been deliberately mischievous... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm going to take the unusual step of sticking up for Rangers here. Their debt in the latter days of the Murray era was serviceable. The only problem was the EBTs which looked like a black-hole. As soon as Sir Minty could no longer underwrite that £50-£100M liability, they had a huge problem. However, RFC were not the only club in the UK doing EBTs. But they were the one club or company that HMRC seemed to have a raging boner for. The Rangers EBTs were fairly unsophisticated as these things go and, from speaking to people in that industry, were not brilliantly set out (what with being planned by a porn-director rather than y'know actual expert tax accountants). Yet at every tribunal, hearing and judgement, they have been held up to be legal. Hindsight is a marvelous thing, but in 2012 you could have bought Rangers as a going concern for £1. £24m debt on a £40m turnover with £40m of assets. With a decent business plan (a la CFC/DUFC buying low/young, selling on) and a halfway sympathetic bank, that debt could have been written down over a 5-10 year period to a nominal amount. Without the HMRC debt, there would have been no shortage of people prepared to take this on. Problem is that with the HMRC liability refusing to go away, Lloyds pushed the sale through to OfftheRadar Whyte and the woes since have been due to the succession of charlatans who've been lining their pockets and making disastrously short-termist decisions. Her Majesty's RCs have done for the Rangers. Ably assisted by every board for the last 10 years. The (majority of) fans haven't been critical enough through this period despite everyone else warning them, and now it's too late again. The debt was 'serviceable' only because Minty moved about 60m plus of it off the RFC 1899 balance sheet and into Murray Group. A debt that had to be written off entirely upon the sale of RFC 1899 to Whyte for a pound. So no not serviceable, smoke and mirrors bollox to make it appear serviceable, ohhhhh yes. Financial doping on an 'industrial scale'. (Much like the postal vote rigging but I digress.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMcoolJ Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 MCFC never had, they were hours from going out of business before the Abu Dhabi money came in. I did say "many of the clubs"!! I concede that I know very little about Man City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...there's an overlap! Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 To all the residents of The Ivory Towers IFC 2012 (thplinth, Scotty CTA, Rossy and the rest - you know who you are), I'm also going to take the unfashionable step of defending Rangers. Let's say for a second, they are/ were guilty of running up debts of, for whatever reason, £80 million over a 25 year period from the start of the Souness revolution from 1986 to 2011. So what? Isn't any worse than teams like Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dunfermline etc getting into an average of £10 million debt over the same period of time - all with substantially smaller turnovers than Rangers. So, if these smaller clubs increased their debt by around £500,000 a year that means Rangers, who were balancing their books at the same debt to turnover as those aforementioned clubs, had an extra £2 million a year to play with. Hardly "financial doping" on a never before heard of scale, is it? What the Charles Green catheter did £2 million get you 25 years ago? One forgettable player including wages? One extra player but, and I'll say it again, even with the EBT fiasco Rangers £80 million debts were in no way any different to the debts being run up at other SPL teams during the same period. Debt to turnover ratio - both the same. Signed, Non-Rangers/ Celtic fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) To all the residents of The Ivory Towers IFC 2012 (thplinth, Scotty CTA, Rossy and the rest - you know who you are), I'm also going to take the unfashionable step of defending Rangers. Let's say for a second, they are/ were guilty of running up debts of, for whatever reason, £80 million over a 25 year period from the start of the Souness revolution from 1986 to 2011. So what? Isn't any worse than teams like Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dunfermline etc getting into an average of £10 million debt over the same period of time - all with substantially smaller turnovers than Rangers. So, if these smaller clubs increased their debt by around £500,000 a year that means Rangers, who were balancing their books at the same debt to turnover as those aforementioned clubs, had an extra £2 million a year to play with. Hardly "financial doping" on a never before heard of scale, is it? What the Charles Green catheter did £2 million get you 25 years ago? One forgettable player including wages? One extra player but, and I'll say it again, even with the EBT fiasco Rangers £80 million debts were in no way any different to the debts being run up at other SPL teams during the same period. Debt to turnover ratio - both the same. Signed, Non-Rangers/ Celtic fan. Why have I been brought into this ? 193 pages in this thread and I must have posted a handful of times. Frankly...and like most I suspect....I don't have a scooby about the situation at Rangers, and I tend only to dip into this thread every couple of days in the hope (yet unfulfilled) that there's a post saying 'Rangers are now officially dead'. I don't live in an ivory tower anyway. Mines is made of gold. Edited January 22, 2015 by Rossy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...there's an overlap! Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Says the man in gold with 13,500 posts. Schmoke and a pancake? Edited January 22, 2015 by ...there's an overlap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 To all the residents of The Ivory Towers IFC 2012 (thplinth, Scotty CTA, Rossy and the rest - you know who you are), I'm also going to take the unfashionable step of defending Rangers. Let's say for a second, they are/ were guilty of running up debts of, for whatever reason, £80 million over a 25 year period from the start of the Souness revolution from 1986 to 2011. So what? Isn't any worse than teams like Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dunfermline etc getting into an average of £10 million debt over the same period of time - all with substantially smaller turnovers than Rangers. So, if these smaller clubs increased their debt by around £500,000 a year that means Rangers, who were balancing their books at the same debt to turnover as those aforementioned clubs, had an extra £2 million a year to play with. Hardly "financial doping" on a never before heard of scale, is it? What the Charles Green catheter did £2 million get you 25 years ago? One forgettable player including wages? One extra player but, and I'll say it again, even with the EBT fiasco Rangers £80 million debts were in no way any different to the debts being run up at other SPL teams during the same period. Debt to turnover ratio - both the same. Signed, Non-Rangers/ Celtic fan. Did Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Hearts or Dunfermline get in to such a bad financial state that they died? Nah, that was just Rangers. So it's not really the same at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Donald Muir is a name that i would think still has relevance, even though he is the forgotten man of this saga. David Grier as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...there's an overlap! Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Surely if, in the next 50 years, you hate The Rangers for exactly the same reasons as Rangers, that must make them the same club. Oder? I say 50 years because they will be like a juggernaut when and not if they get themselves sorted out financially. They will still have the backing of 50,000 fans every week as well as countless others who care for their club just as much as you do for yours. But most importantly, the club will possess a new found will to win. An unwavering determination, brought about by the pain of the last 3 years, which will last generations. A "never forget" to add to the "no surrender". Nothing will have changed. Two Glasgow teams will continue to share the title between them for decades to come. Now there's a real reason to hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Surely if, in the next 50 years, you hate The Rangers for exactly the same reasons as Rangers, that must make them the same club. Oder? I say 50 years because they will be like a juggernaut when and not if they get themselves sorted out financially. They will still have the backing of 50,000 fans every week as well as countless others who care for their club just as much as you do for yours. But most importantly, the club will possess a new found will to win. An unwavering determination, brought about by the pain of the last 3 years, which will last generations. A "never forget" to add to the "no surrender". Nothing will have changed. Two Glasgow teams will continue to share the title between them for decades to come. Now there's a real reason to hate. Todays word of the day is : hagiographic please see above for definition. Edited January 22, 2015 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamntg Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Surely if, in the next 50 years, you hate The Rangers for exactly the same reasons as Rangers, that must make them the same club. Oder? Why? Maybe they're just hateable for the same reasons? I don't really care if they're the same club or not, they were horrible before and they're just as horrible now. And I don't know about the rest of the clubs, but Dundee United ran up nonsensical levels of debt over four or five years, trying desperately to hold onto Rangers coat tails. Between 1998 and 2003 United's debt exploded from virtually nothing to about £6m, and it all went deep into the pockets of wage thieves like Kevin McGowne, Lee Miller and Derek McInnes. They've spent ten years tidying up the mess that was left. If only they'd decided to dump their debt when it got too much of a pain and put themselves into admin. The most incredible bit of the whole Rangers debacle is that only a day or two before they went into administration they were still trying to bring in fannies like Daniel Cousin. That says it all. That, and the talk of £3m war-chests for the current transfer window. They are insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Surely if, in the next 50 years, you hate The Rangers for exactly the same reasons as Rangers, that must make them the same club. Oder? I say 50 years because they will be like a juggernaut when and not if they get themselves sorted out financially. They will still have the backing of 50,000 fans every week as well as countless others who care for their club just as much as you do for yours. But most importantly, the club will possess a new found will to win. An unwavering determination, brought about by the pain of the last 3 years, which will last generations. A "never forget" to add to the "no surrender". Nothing will have changed. Two Glasgow teams will continue to share the title between them for decades to come. Now there's a real reason to hate. Yet you're embarrassed to support The Rangers and lie about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glasgow jock Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Surely if, in the next 50 years, you hate The Rangers for exactly the same reasons as Rangers, that must make them the same club. Oder? I say 50 years because they will be like a juggernaut when and not if they get themselves sorted out financially. They will still have the backing of 50,000 fans every week as well as countless others who care for their club just as much as you do for yours. But most importantly, the club will possess a new found will to win. An unwavering determination, brought about by the pain of the last 3 years, which will last generations. A "never forget" to add to the "no surrender". Nothing will have changed. Two Glasgow teams will continue to share the title between them for decades to come. Now there's a real reason to hate. And as a non-old firm supporting football fan, what a feckin depressing thought that is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...there's an overlap! Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The board intellect has just called me a hagiographic. I'm scared to google that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 It's just more of the same "weearrapeepil" superiority and triumphalist attitude that got them in the mess in the first place. They're getting pumped off Hibs, QOTS & Alloa (no offence to these teams) in the 2nd tier in front of 15,000. Yet fanboys are on here declaring they'll be "like a juggernaut" have "50,000 fans every week" and will have "an unwavering determination" which will "last generations" It is of course all complete excrement. Their team consists of Ricky Foster & Bilel Moshni and they need emergency loans every month just to pay the staff and keep the lights on. Their stadium and training ground is being hawked as security to cover loans that they seem unlikely to be able to trade their way to paying. But hey, just keep repeating "no surrender..wearrapeepil", that'll make it all okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Zeppelin Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The board intellect has just called me a hagiographic. I'm scared to google that now. Aw, go on!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...there's an overlap! Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Confidence is a preference for the habitual tartan army message board member mistaking a Dunfermline fan for a Rangers one, who is known as.... Parklife! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Signed, Non-Rangers/ Celtic fan. 'The Rangers' fan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecie Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The board intellect has just called me a hagiographic. I'm scared to google that now. I think it means you're scared to Google things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Being able to attract large numbers is no guarantee of success. Third Lanark's record crowd was 45,455 - only 8 clubs in Scotland have ever had a home crowd bigger than that, and the eight includes Queens Park, St Mirren, Clyde and Partick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I think it means you're scared to Google things. I think it means he likes drawing old women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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