Plane Crash In French Alps

[phart]

Aerospace engineering is all about maximising safety while minimising costs...

Min maxing is a form i'm very familiar with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min-maxing

[Tartan Monkey]

When it says the descent was an 8 minute descent is that not rather quick? Like a nose dive pretty much?

It's about twice the normal descent rate, so it was descending at 3000-4000 ft/min. An A320 in a vertical dive would be in the 20,000-30,000 ft/min range very roughly. So steeper than normal yes, but wouldn't have felt terribly odd in the cabin.

[thplinth]

I am curious about the 8 minute descent. Why after you lock the door not go into a steep dive? Less time to think about it or have them break down the door?

[Tartan Monkey]

I kind of think there might have been some crossed wires in this whole passive aggressive argument. In certain ways you are correct part in that collectively its harder to design and build an aircraft ( hence why it takes so many engineers) but singly I think the pilots job is harder. Anyway phart glad you mentioned the chipmunk it brought back great memories of going to RAF turnhouse to fly it with the ATC

@tartan monkey

Out of interest what has been your favourite plane that you have flown and what plane would you love to fly

Favourites for different reasons. For work - B777 and B757. For pleasure - FFA Bravo (Aerobatic trainer), Kitfox.

Wish list. F16, F86 Sabre, Spitfire, P51 Mustang, B727, Concorde, B707, Extra 300.

[Tartan Monkey]

I am curious about the 8 minute descent. Why after you lock the door not go into a steep dive? Less time to think about it or have them break down the door?

I'm curious about that too, I guess he took the answer to that with him.

[Return of Yermaw]

I'm curious about that too, I guess he took the answer to that with him.

I don't know - he was a pilot - maybe he wanted to maintain an element of control to the descent. Although other purported pilot suicides seem to have taken the plan into a dive.

[Orraloon]

I don't know - he was a pilot - maybe he wanted to maintain an element of control to the descent. Although other purported pilot suicides seem to have taken the plan into a dive.

Maybe he wanted to give himself some time in case he changed his mind?

[phart]

I am curious about the 8 minute descent. Why after you lock the door not go into a steep dive? Less time to think about it or have them break down the door?

Maybe he didn't want to unduly alarm the passengers, although the captain trying to break the cockpit door down might have alerted some folk.

It's hard to fathom the "reasoning", maybe it was the way he pictured it just into the side of a mountain.

[Ally Bongo]

I am curious about the 8 minute descent. Why after you lock the door not go into a steep dive? Less time to think about it or have them break down the door?

Is there possibly some sort of safeguard that wont allow you to do that - i.e a steep 180 degree dive ?

Maybe he didnt want to alarm the passengers and have screaming all the way down

[Tartan Monkey]

Maybe he didn't want to unduly alarm the passengers, although the captain trying to break the cockpit door down might have alerted some folk.

It's hard to fathom the "reasoning", maybe it was the way he pictured it just into the side of a mountain.

Yes. I agree. I had thought the same thing.

[phart]

Yes. I agree. I had thought the same thing.

[thplinth]

I'm curious about that too, I guess he took the answer to that with him.

I can see him punch in the numbers, put on his headphones, close his eyes, and 8 mins later...

Selfish little .

[fringo]

Not wanting to alarm the passengers he's about to murder ?!

[phart]

Not wanting to alarm the passengers he's about to murder ?!

Yeah it seems crazy, but ... who knows trying to make sense of the senseless leads you down mad roads.

[G-Man]

I've always thought that trying to rationalise suicide is difficult as its a totally irrational act. Although if facing painful terminal illness then maybe more rational. We only have rumours of depression, maybe some more deep rooted problems, schizophrenia for example. Heard the father of an American victim speak tonight about the parents of the pilot and was so moved by his compassion at such a dreadful time for him.

As an aside, I once freaked out on a flight from Istanbul to Tel Aviv as I thought my head was going to explode. I've been told I was very polite but very forceful in my insistence of getting off the plane as I didn't want all the blood and flesh to go over the other passengers. I was at the back door trying my hardest to reach it and open it, air hostesses were great but they eventually got one of the pilots out to me. He eventually persuaded me to go back to my seat, people on either side held polystyrene cups with hot pads at the bottom against my ears and I had to suck my thumb till we landed. Thank goodness I was too out of it to realise how bad that look was. Anyway everyone got off the plane, pal and I were asked to wait, stewardesses sat with me, I was greeting like mad, as still sore and realisation of what I'd done was starting to dawn on me. Pilots came out and were as great as the stewardesses, walked off plane with me and took me through airport. In fairness they may have just been making sure I left the building. Anyway, this adds hee haw to the debate on here except to say I have the upmost respect for all airline workers.

[Toepoke]

Lubitz split up with his fiance the day before the crash (allegedly)...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germanwings-plane-crash-andreas-lubitz-5415168

[PaulS2014]

Thanks Tartan Monkey for the insight into things, very helpful and very decent of you sharing your views/opinions on things with us.

Despite what they said at the press conference and with the pilot trying to break the door down a fair amount of those passengers must have known what was happening, it's awful to comprehend but the whole "didn't realise till the last second" I find hard to believe.

With regards to the co pilot I'm surprised psychological tests aren't conducted at some stage of a pilots career. I guess this is a cost cutting measure potentially? Thought that plus the two people in the cabin would be standard practice and surprised to realise this was not the case with some airlines.

[Orraloon]

I've always thought that trying to rationalise suicide is difficult as its a totally irrational act. Although if facing painful terminal illness then maybe more rational. We only have rumours of depression, maybe some more deep rooted problems, schizophrenia for example. Heard the father of an American victim speak tonight about the parents of the pilot and was so moved by his compassion at such a dreadful time for him.

As an aside, I once freaked out on a flight from Istanbul to Tel Aviv as I thought my head was going to explode. I've been told I was very polite but very forceful in my insistence of getting off the plane as I didn't want all the blood and flesh to go over the other passengers. I was at the back door trying my hardest to reach it and open it, air hostesses were great but they eventually got one of the pilots out to me. He eventually persuaded me to go back to my seat, people on either side held polystyrene cups with hot pads at the bottom against my ears and I had to suck my thumb till we landed. Thank goodness I was too out of it to realise how bad that look was. Anyway everyone got off the plane, pal and I were asked to wait, stewardesses sat with me, I was greeting like mad, as still sore and realisation of what I'd done was starting to dawn on me. Pilots came out and were as great as the stewardesses, walked off plane with me and took me through airport. In fairness they may have just been making sure I left the building. Anyway, this adds hee haw to the debate on here except to say I have the upmost respect for all airline workers.

I'm sure it wasnae very funny at the time but..........

[Auld_Reekie]

I remember being on a flight back from Lanzarote when there was commotion about 20 rows in front of me. Couldn't quite hear what was going on but seen some jakeball standing up shouting and being aggressive. Sweat pouring out of him and he looked absolutely mental. Whole flight was obviously getting very agitated and on edge. Flight Crew tried to reason with him but were having limited success. Pilot was next up to try and speak sense to him. Idiot got aggressive toward pilot who just immediately turned, walked back to cockpit and within seconds, plane was heading down at brisk pace. Within minutes all I could see was bodies jumping on him, over seats the lot. Was eventually hauled out into the aisle, before an off duty officer cuffed him. Guy was left lying in the aisle until we touched down in Portugal. Turns out guy was going daft, shouting about he wanted to get off the plane (!) or he would kill everyone on board. Punched the window, the lot. Also think he broke old fella's hand who was sitting next to him.

Absolutely horrendous. Just found link.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/terror-at-36000ft-933919

[G-Man]

I'm sure it wasnae very funny at the time but..........

Flure thought it was funny to tell me the reasons for all the safety things on flights night before flying home from a trip, head bent forward to protect teeth for formal id, feet getting ripped off, etc. So don't worry I'm used to mockery, even with head explosions. :-(

Tartan Monkey, did you see results of Glasgow Uni experiment few years ago where they had someone drink half bottle of vodka and filmed their behaviour then few days later made them wear masks so they were breathing air you get on board planes and drink half bottle? Their behaviour with latter experiment showed far more aggression. I'm sure the suggestion was that since smoking ban air 'capsules' (not sure what they are) aren't changed as much on flights, less oxygen therefore increased erratic behaviour. Once again a cost cutting exercise.

Edited March 28, 2015 by G-Man

[kumnio]

G-Man, your escapades and adventures are becoming legendary.

Always good for a laugh!!

[neilser]

I found this article interesting and couldn't help wonderIng in hypoxia might in fact have played a part in this - the press conference mentioned that the pilot sounded 'laconic'.

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Hypoxia_(OGHFA_BN)

'4.3 Partial Compensatory Stage, 3,500 - 6,000 m (11,400 - 20,000 ft)

Between these altitudes, a drastic increase in breathing is needed to maintain proper cardiovascular function. Nervous system functioning begins to degrade, but there can also be great individual variability in the symptoms for a given altitude.

Cognitive disturbances are typical at these altitudes. They are characterized by two main components:

Loss of self-monitoring and cognitive feedback

Difficulty in thinking

The absence of self-monitoring makes it impossible for an individual to recognize whether his or her actions are hazardous. This, combined with slow thinking, can be extremely dangerous. Many times fixation occurs or there is a tendency to repeat an action without realizing that the action was just completed moments before. Judgment becomes extremely poor and physical movement becomes uncoordinated.

A pilot often will have trouble concentrating or may have difficulty reading instruments. Delayed and/or imprecise communications may result. Frequently, alterations in a pilot’s voice are the first signs that something is wrong. An example is when a pilot attempts to deliver altitude information to the controller, but there is a noticeable delay and the pilot has a lazy, dull tone to his or her voice. Many potential accidents have been prevented when a controller recognizes these symptoms and notifies the pilot of the need to take corrective action.

Such situations demonstrate the importance of knowing the symptoms of hypoxia and the correct actions that must be taken to resolve the situation. In a case such as the one described above, it is important that the controller use strong instructions to the pilot to take corrective action. Because the crew may already be impaired by hypoxia, they may have to be convinced that there actually is a problem.'

[ParisInAKilt]

I don't think its right to assume he was depressed based on the fact he received treatment for depression 6 years ago.

Apparently an unnamed source at the hospital said he was receiving treatment for a physical illness, not a mental health one.

[Tartan Monkey]

I found this article interesting and couldn't help wonderIng in hypoxia might in fact have played a part in this - the press conference mentioned that the pilot sounded 'laconic'.

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Hypoxia_(OGHFA_BN)

'4.3 Partial Compensatory Stage, 3,500 - 6,000 m (11,400 - 20,000 ft)

Between these altitudes, a drastic increase in breathing is needed to maintain proper cardiovascular function. Nervous system functioning begins to degrade, but there can also be great individual variability in the symptoms for a given altitude.

Cognitive disturbances are typical at these altitudes. They are characterized by two main components:

Loss of self-monitoring and cognitive feedback

Difficulty in thinking

The absence of self-monitoring makes it impossible for an individual to recognize whether his or her actions are hazardous. This, combined with slow thinking, can be extremely dangerous. Many times fixation occurs or there is a tendency to repeat an action without realizing that the action was just completed moments before. Judgment becomes extremely poor and physical movement becomes uncoordinated.

A pilot often will have trouble concentrating or may have difficulty reading instruments. Delayed and/or imprecise communications may result. Frequently, alterations in a pilot’s voice are the first signs that something is wrong. An example is when a pilot attempts to deliver altitude information to the controller, but there is a noticeable delay and the pilot has a lazy, dull tone to his or her voice. Many potential accidents have been prevented when a controller recognizes these symptoms and notifies the pilot of the need to take corrective action.

Such situations demonstrate the importance of knowing the symptoms of hypoxia and the correct actions that must be taken to resolve the situation. In a case such as the one described above, it is important that the controller use strong instructions to the pilot to take corrective action. Because the crew may already be impaired by hypoxia, they may have to be convinced that there actually is a problem.'

Hypoxia would only have played a part if the cabin had depressurised. Although the aeroplane is flying at 38000ft, the cabin altitude is around 6000-8000ft. So assuming normal pressurisation, hypoxia isn't an issue. If it depressurised you would have heard the alarms on the CVR.

[Tartan Monkey]

Flure thought it was funny to tell me the reasons for all the safety things on flights night before flying home from a trip, head bent forward to protect teeth for formal id, feet getting ripped off, etc. So don't worry I'm used to mockery, even with head explosions. :-(

Tartan Monkey, did you see results of Glasgow Uni experiment few years ago where they had someone drink half bottle of vodka and filmed their behaviour then few days later made them wear masks so they were breathing air you get on board planes and drink half bottle? Their behaviour with latter experiment showed far more aggression. I'm sure the suggestion was that since smoking ban air 'capsules' (not sure what they are) aren't changed as much on flights, less oxygen therefore increased erratic behaviour. Once again a cost cutting exercise.

There are no air capsules on an aeroplane. Air conditioning an pressurisation is actives by cold air entering the engine. It's then compressed and heated (known as bleed air) and is taken to the air conditioning packs. Inside the pack a heat exchanger cools the air back down. Finally it is gently heated to achieve the desired temperature on the cabin. Most large passenger aeroplanes have 2 or more a/c packs. Its true that filters are not as badly damaged as they were during the smoking days, but smoking on board was stopped for safety, not economic reasons.