Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Scunnered, I usually like reading your posts on here as it always helps stir up a bit of debate - and while I don't fully agree with a lot of your politics, I don't strongly disagree with any of them, and I like reading the arguments you make as they occasionally make me question my own views. But you cannot seriously be arguing that we follow how the Chinese government behaves in relation to business. Some of the stuff that millions upon millions of their workers have to endure is absolutely criminal. You're throwing stats around like the Tories do when they try to tell us how the UK has improved under their leadership but we're not daft - you can't seriously sit there and tell people that poverty is more of a problem in the UK than it is in China. Their human rights record with regards labour is scandalous. I used to have the same views as you. I attended a meeting led by Robert Griffiths on the Western view of communism. He produced a report by The United States Department of State on Workers Rights in China. The document was 350 pages long, and 300 of them were dedicated to the lack of Freedom of Movement. Where's the problem in that? Freedom of Movement is one of the lefts main objections to the EU. I'm no expert on China, but I have zero interest in the Wests depiction of the country, just as I have zero interest in the Wests depiction of communist Russia. Edited June 17, 2015 by Scunnered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I'm no expert on China, but I have zero interest in the Wests depiction of the country, just as I have zero interest in the Wests depiction of communist Russia. Then you surely cannot make poverty comparisons when , as I said , the differences are just so huge (economically , politically , culturally and historically they could barely be more different). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Then you surely cannot make poverty comparisons when , as I said , the differences are just so huge (economically , politically , culturally and historically they could barely be more different). I'm not making poverty comparisons, studies did using international standards, I merely quoted their findings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Well the studies are shit (for the purposes of poverty comparison). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Well the studies are shit (for the purposes of poverty comparison). Oh? Based on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Oh? Based on? Because as I have said repeatedly you simply cannot compare China and Scotland in any meaningful sense. Its just nuts. Yes their poverty levels may have reduced hugely but I'd be pretty certain that the "real" poverty that exists is far worse than anything in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Because as I have said repeatedly you simply cannot compare China and Scotland in any meaningful sense. Its just nuts. Yes their poverty levels may have reduced hugely but I'd be pretty certain that the "real" poverty that exists is far worse than anything in this country. You think? Poverty in the Vatican City is less than that in Africa. Facts are cheils that winna ding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Because as I have said repeatedly you simply cannot compare China and Scotland in any meaningful sense. Its just nuts. Yes their poverty levels may have reduced hugely but I'd be pretty certain that the "real" poverty that exists is far worse than anything in this country. What makes you so certain? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious as to why you seem absolutely certain beyond reasonable doubt that these studies are wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 What makes you so certain? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious as to why you seem absolutely certain beyond reasonable doubt that these studies are wrong? Why do they need to be "wrong" to make them useless for comparison? I've got a bit of an orchard. The pear trees produce less fruit than the cherry trees. Conclusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 What makes you so certain? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious as to why you seem absolutely certain beyond reasonable doubt that these studies are wrong? Maybe I am wrong but it seems blindingly obvious. 1) stats can show pretty much anything - I have no idea what the purpose of the studies were but would doubt their rationale was "back up scunnered on the TAMB".. 2) China has history//culture/scale etc etc ...it is so massively different that simple comparisons of anything (not just poverty) are pretty daft . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Why do they need to be "wrong" to make them useless for comparison? I've got a bit of an orchard. The pear trees produce less fruit than the cherry trees. Conclusion? Oranges are not the only fruit ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 There was a larger difference between 1700 America and the previous 6000 years in culture, language, economics, religion than china today and the UK, yet Adam Smiths economic models worked, David Humes theories worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Why do they need to be "wrong" to make them useless for comparison? I've got a bit of an orchard. The pear trees produce less fruit than the cherry trees. Conclusion? I'm asking why they're useless for comparison when they are carried out using an international standard? I don't think it's an unusual question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Dendrology is a unified science, it doesn't delineate between orange and cherries it still covers all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Dendrology is a unified science, it doesn't delineate between orange and cherries it still covers all of them. Derailing for a second. Started playing D3 last night as a wizard, remarkably OP. Rolled a crusader, Demon Hunter, all OP. The whole game appears to have been nerfed to the point of boredom. Edited June 17, 2015 by Scunnered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 How's Chinas human rights Scunnered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 How's Chinas human rights Scunnered? Up for debate. As I've already pointed out in this thread the most intensive report on China's human rights ever conducted focused on matters that would benefit capital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Up for debate. As I've already pointed out in this thread the most intensive report on China's human rights ever conducted focused on matters that would benefit capital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 You follow the Chinese model. ALL monopolies are brought under public ownership while the private sector is free to compete over the rest. Employment in the private sector is fully regulated by the government. China has the fastest growing private sector in the world. Ah i see the Chinese model is known as the beijing consensus, and is actually well defined and described and debated by economists all over the world, in fact here is a 2004 paper from the UK foreign office discussing it (http://fpc.org.uk/fsblob/244.pdf) It gets discussed in America by the Council of foreign relations. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2010-05-01/beijing-consensus-how-chinas-authoritarian-model-will-dominate Former policy makers in many countries talk about it's uses and of course criticisms of it. Loads of countries try and adopt the practices. It's allure is talked about in international papers: http://www.sinoptic.ch/textes/articles/2006/20061102_zhang.weiwei_chinese.model-en.pdf Discusses at length in the Economist.: http://www.economist.com/node/13721724 I bet all these scientists, economists, former US foreign policy makers, African Countries , and special advisory boards to Western Governments will feel foolish discussing this when it's actually comparing cherries with oranges or soemthing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 You don't believe that it should be debated... The most heinous human rights violation in China (in Americas eyes) is the freedom of movement of workers? Even in your mind that should set alarm bells ringing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 You don't believe that it should be debated... The most heinous human rights violation in China (in Americas eyes) is the freedom of movement of workers? Even in your mind that should set alarm bells ringing See that bit there, that's where you lost my respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Looking at the Chinese model it's too authoritarian for me, relies too much on "exploiting" cheap labour for it to get it's stunning results. I'd like to see a toned down version somewhere and see the productivity that way. Though why producing should be seen as so good is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 See that bit there, that's where you lost my respect. I didn't think respect was an issue when you replied to my post with a laughing smiley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Utter hypocrisy from you Flure, I expected far better from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Sometimes the SNP are bad. The blinkered defence of their every action on this message board is pretty sad. And sometimes they are not but you wouldn't know it from some people which is pretty sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.5eeaf0fbe501ba3c868c32fd77caef1f.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.