The Tartan Army Are In Danger Of "celebrating Failure"

[McExpat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34502121

Scotland: Willie Miller warns over 'celebrating failure'

The Tartan Army are in danger of "celebrating failure," according to former Scotland defender Willie Miller.

Scotland ended their Euro 2016 campaign with a 6-0 thumping of Gibraltar to finish fourth in Group D - missing out on qualification.

"We've got euphoria tonight and in a way that saddens me too," Miller told BBC Scotland's Sportsound.

"We're basically celebrating failure.

For me, this was the opportunity for any manager to qualify."

Gordon Strachan has yet to confirm whether he will remain as Scotland manager for their 2018 World Cup qualification campaign, saying he will have a "debrief" following the victory against Gibraltar.

Miller, who said he has been impressed by Strachan's efforts with the player at his disposal, has warned of the dangers of lauding failure to qualify for major tournaments.

"You've got to sit down, look through it and be honest with yourself," said the former Aberdeen and Scotland defender.

"The performance tonight was good and I just think that the Scottish fans are now used to not qualifying; that they grasp onto anything and they celebrate it.

"I'm not having a go at them in any way at all, I'd just like to see us getting to a major championships."

Miller added: "For me, this was the opportunity for any manager to qualify. Third place gets you a play-off spot and second place gets you automatic qualification - the best chance for any manager to qualify for a major championships. And we haven't been able to do it."

The Sportsound pundit said it was important for Strachan to believe he could get more from his players.

"What I would hate to see is all that enthusiasm and bonding going on just now, is that it turns sour," said Miller.

"We've seen it happen in the past - it turns sour in the next campaign because it doesn't get off to a positive start.

"If we don't qualify in the next campaign then that is failure - two qualification attempts from the manager and I wouldn't like to see that happening to Gordon because I think he has done a fine job with the players that he's got."

Edited October 12, 2015 by McExpat

[McExpat]

He makes some very valid points imo

[glasgow jock]

Don't disagree with any of what he has said.

[Alan]

I agree with that. It's safe to say that we all or the majority do not expect to win every game or even qualify for every tournament. However we need to expect the players and the team to perform to the best of their ability. There is a malaise in the support. It's part stag do, part office Christmas party for far too many.

Look at the threads on this board before a game. Majority are about "pre-match and post-match pery'sy", pubs to go to, "who did you meet?", dressing up and what goes with what, lost and found section. Very little is on the actual game - our team and the opposition team with tactics etc.

You get steam boats coming in the game late, falling asleep, disinterested in the game and the tactics. Many who are there are shouting "get intae them" and "get it up the park" like it's the old days when you could barge a keeper into the goal. People harking on about past glories and the end of street football which was 3 generations ago. I'm astounded when people admit they only go to Scotland games (damaging the lifeblood of our domestic game) or go to more Away games than Home when Home should be our fortress. We didn't sell out Poland game to Scotland fans and the Polish gladly took them.

If you have a support who have conflicting interests and reasons being there while sitting there eating a pie to soak up the multiple pints how can we complain about the athleticism and professionalism of the players on the park? It's difficult to demand success from the team, professionalism and desire to win when a lot of the support does not seem to care.

[teecee-]

Estimates of 8,000 to 12,000 fans last night in Portugal.

Far too quick to applaud failure. A lap of honour and a standing ovation.

Oh dear......why?

[Pete Gas]

Have to say having 11,000+ Scotland fans in the ground last night surprised me. Expected a much quieter attendance after the Poland game.

[Langtonian]

Very much hits the nail on the head

[Tartan_Wolf]

Think some people are over estimating the impact they personally have on the success of the nation. I'd rather be able to celebrate defeat once in a while than be dependent on Scotland winning for my fun. Plus you're much more likely to get kid's to play the game if Scotland is looked at positively rather than just focusing on the doom and gloom. So in away celebrating failure is more likely to be connected to eventual success than, making a stand against people having the audacity to have fun, irregardless of one teams inability to kick a ball into a net.

[wubbs]

I agree with that. It's safe to say that we all or the majority do not expect to win every game or even qualify for every tournament. However we need to expect the players and the team to perform to the best of their ability. There is a malaise in the support. It's part stag do, part office Christmas party for far too many.

Look at the threads on this board before a game. Majority are about "pre-match and post-match pery'sy", pubs to go to, "who did you meet?", dressing up and what goes with what, lost and found section. Very little is on the actual game - our team and the opposition team with tactics etc.

You get steam boats coming in the game late, falling asleep, disinterested in the game and the tactics. Many who are there are shouting "get intae them" and "get it up the park" like it's the old days when you could barge a keeper into the goal. People harking on about past glories and the end of street football which was 3 generations ago. I'm astounded when people admit they only go to Scotland games (damaging the lifeblood of our domestic game) or go to more Away games than Home when Home should be our fortress. We didn't sell out Poland game to Scotland fans and the Polish gladly took them.

If you have a support who have conflicting interests and reasons being there while sitting there eating a pie to soak up the multiple pints how can we complain about the athleticism and professionalism of the players on the park? It's difficult to demand success from the team, professionalism and desire to win when a lot of the support does not seem to care.

We've been getting gradually worse over the last several campaigns, yet the prices continue to increase. I'm not surprised the Poland game wasn't a sell out.

One of the reasons I've not been to any home games this campaign.

[sbcmfc]

Have to say having 11,000+ Scotland fans in the ground last night surprised me. Expected a much quieter attendance after the Poland game.

I doubt many folk booked up to go on Friday morning.

If you're spending a few hundred quid to go to Faro, it would seem mental to not go to the game....

[AlfieMoon]

While I don't disagree with the main point, I can't see what exactly he wanted to happen differently last night.

If we had 8,000-12,000 fans who have invested their time, money and holidays on a trip (in the hope that it would seal qualification - might I add!) then what exactly would he suggest when the teams performances in recent games has seen the qualification hopes all go to crap?!

Should everyone have just stayed at home and lost all their money?

Should they have went for the holiday but not attended the game?

Should they have went to the game but only on the basis that they sat on their hands and didn't provide backing to the team in order to prove a point?

Should they have not applauded after the game nor received the thanks from the players and management in order to ensure that they knew that it wasn't acceptable not to qualify?

The football should absolutely be the focal point and we should crave the success above any of the partying antics. I agree that for some, the football isn't the absolute priority but in saying that we're celebrating failure, I think Willie Miller is looking the wrong way. The finger has to be pointed at the team and none other than that.

[TartanTon]

He is spot on.

Been saying as much for long enough. By my own admittance i am not a good loser and i cannot stand for the happy clapping either (and i leave before that starts at any game we are duffed at, at the end of the game i may add).

I am not saying deride individual players or bay for blood but football players need to know when fans are utterly despondent.

As teecee states, a standing ovation and 'lap of honour' is a why? and very much an 'oh dear' spectacle and not a little cringeworthy.

Maybe its because i am old enough to have been lucky enough to see us in finals or maybe its because i looked at other teams and seen that we should be fearing no one.

There was nothing 'heroic' about our failure in my mind.

For what its worth i want Gordon to stay, i want him to take us to a finals but i think we as fans need to take a look at ourselves in the part we play of forever forgiving and having the 'oh well, thats just us, next time maybe' attitude.

Edited October 12, 2015 by TartanTon

[Ally Bongo]

Our fans are the SFA's dream

[Parklife]

He's right. Some amount of complete embarrassments in our support.

[teecee-]

Our fans are the SFA's dream

Correct, be interesting when membership renewal comes around.

No doubt be £50 or thereabouts.

[1ANDYP]

What's wrong with applauding your teams efforts .the Scotland team means a lot to a lot of people' me included. As for dicks in our support. There are dicks in every crowd in every walk of life. IMO we have an outstanding support. Great atmosphere in albufeira. Had 3 amazing nights with friends ' family and fellow fans.

[exile]

I agree with that. It's safe to say that we all or the majority do not expect to win every game or even qualify for every tournament. However we need to expect the players and the team to perform to the best of their ability. There is a malaise in the support. It's part stag do, part office Christmas party for far too many.

Look at the threads on this board before a game. Majority are about "pre-match and post-match pery'sy", pubs to go to, "who did you meet?", dressing up and what goes with what, lost and found section. Very little is on the actual game - our team and the opposition team with tactics etc.

You get steam boats coming in the game late, falling asleep, disinterested in the game and the tactics. Many who are there are shouting "get intae them" and "get it up the park" like it's the old days when you could barge a keeper into the goal. People harking on about past glories and the end of street football which was 3 generations ago. I'm astounded when people admit they only go to Scotland games (damaging the lifeblood of our domestic game) or go to more Away games than Home when Home should be our fortress. We didn't sell out Poland game to Scotland fans and the Polish gladly took them.

If you have a support who have conflicting interests and reasons being there while sitting there eating a pie to soak up the multiple pints how can we complain about the athleticism and professionalism of the players on the park? It's difficult to demand success from the team, professionalism and desire to win when a lot of the support does not seem to care.

I agree with a lot of that. However I wouldn't criticise threads on logistics of meeting up etc - it's a vital part of what the board is about surely? Also you might allow that those old-school types who shout "get intae them" are at least showing concern for what's on the field of play, and not messing about with their iphones. The last point about conflicting interests and appetite to win is interesting though I don't think excludes an appetite for pies.

[kps022000]

Bit of a mixed bag this trip.

Seen some families making a holiday of it and that is a nice change from the usual, on the other hand, seen plenty of kids at 10:30pm, fast asleep outside bars in the strip whilst guys were lying half naked in bushes, pavements, etc, with their kilt around their necks. I question the parenting skills of some in our support.

Walked up the strip, walked back down the strip, went to a quiet restaurant for a meal and few beers. This was on Saturday night.

Yesterday we went to the beach and again seen lots of families out enjoying the sun.

It's a bit of managing your expectations, plenty of roasters out here but if you go to an area synonymous with roasters you won't have to look hard to find them.

[radian_13]

If you'd been in the ground youd have heard and seen the celebrations were muted. Was we supposed to boo or just be quiet moaning cause we didn't qualify??

[Rab The Crab]

I agree with him on most counts, it's not exclusive to the fans though.

It comes from every angle though I reckon.

Our coaches and as a result our players give opposition far too much respect which then makes it appear that us as fans should be so incredibly grateful for a snatched point or narrow defeat.

As has been discussed elsewhere there are countries with equal and poorer players than us who achieve more, until we change our attitude as a nation(including the media)we'll continue to under achieve.

[Daz1982]

I agree with him on most counts, it's not exclusive to the fans though.

It comes from every angle though I reckon.

Our coaches and as a result our players give opposition far too much respect which then makes it appear that us as fans should be so incredibly grateful for a snatched point or narrow defeat.

As has been discussed elsewhere there are countries with equal and poorer players than us who achieve more, until we change our attitude as a nation(including the media)we'll continue to under achieve.

I agree, we always seem to enter matches with an inferiority complex with the attitude of let's try our best or let's put up a good show. There never seems to be any real desire or ambition to do anything more than make up the numbers.

I heard Craig Brown on the radio last night stating what the populations of Germany and Poland are, this according to him is justification for us being happy and satisfied with finishing in 3rd or 4th place. This is complete nonsense in my opinion, football is our national sport and we should be aiming not just to make up the numbers or qualify but to actually produce a team who can WIN a tournament.

Uruguay is a great example, population of 3.5 million. They have won a record 15 Copa Americas not to mention 2 x World Cups.

I spent some time in Argentina and Uruguay during the 2011 tournament, not once did Uruguay play down their chances or play the 'we're too wee' card, they knocked out Argentina (hosts) and went on to WIN it in their arch rivals backyard. The equivalent would be us winning Euro 96. Would we even begin to dream that this might be possible, or will we forever be happy to just make up the numbers and party like a bunch of clowns win or lose!?

Edited October 12, 2015 by Daz1982

[Charlie Endell]

I agree, we always seem to enter matches with an inferiority complex with the attitude of let's try our best or let's put up a good show. There never seems to be any real desire or ambition to do anything more than make up the numbers.

I heard Craig Brown on the radio last night stating what the populations of Germany and Poland are, this according to him is justification for us being happy and satisfied with finishing in 3rd or 4th place. This is complete nonsense in my opinion, football is our national sport and we should be aiming not just to make up the numbers or qualify but to actually produce a team who can WIN a tournament.

Uruguay is a great example, population of 3.5 million. They have won a record 15 Copa Americas not to mention 2 x World Cups.

I spent some time in Argentina and Uruguay during the 2011 tournament, not once did Uruguay play down their chances or play the 'we're too wee' card, they knocked out Argentina (hosts) and went on to WIN it in their arch rivals backyard. The equivalent would be us winning Euro 96. Would we even begin to dream that this might be possible, or will we forever be happy to just make up the numbers and party like a bunch of clowns win or lose!?

Stupid old goat. Edited October 12, 2015 by Charlie Endell

[ianp]

Can appreciate point made by Willie Miller, yes we did have a great opportunity to qualify and we didn't. Yes the Tartan Army cheered our team onto victory last night against a poor side, but they could have gone through the motions, but they didn't and deserved praise. I have been at most of the last few campaigns and this one has been the most enjoyable. Yes, we did not qualify, but we did compete, more than can be said for previous debacles.

[Ally Bongo]

The most depressing thing of all is that i am totally convinced we are that far behind and have allowed SFA negligence to such a state that we will never recover.

I cannot see any way back but if there is it will be 20 years and upwards away and by that time i'll be in my late 60s

The most galling thing of all is that the same old arguments and observations of what is required has been going on for as long as i have been following Scotland

There was Ernie Walker's Think Tank to be followed years later by the McLeish Report

Both these things were designed to deflect SFA mismanagement (it didnt need a think tank or a report to realise what was wrong and what had been going wrong) and also to dupe us all into thinking they were actually going to do something.

At the time both these reports started out there was public anger towards the SFA and these were designed to appease everyone.

It didnt take long for us all to be distracted by another qualifying campaign and they were forgotten

Everything the SFA have done in my lifetime has been piecemeal - be it youth development, coaching facilities, ambition and even Hampden itself which is a complete midden compared to the Millennium & Wembley stadiums

They make out of how we are the greatest and most loyal fans in the World never mind the home nations and what have they given us in return ?

It is time they were held to account but i have no idea how that can be achieved

All our clubs are complicit as are the media

Edited October 12, 2015 by Ally Bongo

[Rab The Crab]

Looking at the Germany games in particular, you could argue if being a bit harsh they were there for the taking, particularly in the away tie.

We, myself included congratulated the team for the narrow loss, what did a poorer Ireland side do?

Took 4 points off them.