Younger / New Faces For March Friendlies ?

[aaid]

1 hour ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Good post.

Colin Hendry was a bit of a late developer too, made his Scotland debut at about twenty-seven - got fifty-one caps.

David Weir made his Scotland debut at about twenty-seven years old - got sixty-nine caps (and would have got more had it not been for the Vogts dispute)

 

Nonsense.  Colin Hendry was not a late developer. He had been playing for Man City in the old first division for about three years, and Blackburn in the second division before getting his international debut.  I don't think there was a huge difference in Colin Hendry Between the ages of 23 and  27, other than that he was playing in a better team. The reason why it took him so long to get a cap was simply because there were much better centre halves a available at the time.  In the late 80s/early 90s, defence and in particular central defence was a real strength for us.  

We had the likes of Alex McLeish and Richard Gough both of whom you could make a case for being among the very best to have played in that position for Scotland.  Craig Levein and Alan McLaren were exceptional talents whose careers were brought to a premature end through injury, McLaren in particular could have come close to 100 caps if he'd stayed fit.  Then you had the likes of likes of Dave McPherson, Gary Gillespie and Roy Aitken as well.

David Weir I grant you was a late developer but that was down to his unorthodox approach of going through the US college system, so I don't think you can use him as an example.  If he had started as a pro earlier he would have most likely been capped earlier - it might also be one of the reasons he was able to play into his 40s. 

I'm not saying players don't get better as they get older, of course they do, but it's very rare that you get players kicking around the lower leagues at the age of 25 who turn into international quality players.  There are always exceptions but for every one that comes through I could give you 100 examples of players who were talked up and ultimately never amounted to anything. 

[ProudScot]

14 hours ago, aaid said:

 

Nonsense.  Colin Hendry was not a late developer. He had been playing for Man City in the old first division for about three years, and Blackburn in the second division before getting his international debut.  I don't think there was a huge difference in Colin Hendry Between the ages of 23 and  27, other than that he was playing in a better team. The reason why it took him so long to get a cap was simply because there were much better centre halves a available at the time.  In the late 80s/early 90s, defence and in particular central defence was a real strength for us.

We had the likes of Alex McLeish and Richard Gough both of whom you could make a case for being among the very best to have played in that position for Scotland.  Craig Levein and Alan McLaren were exceptional talents whose careers were brought to a premature end through injury, McLaren in particular could have come close to 100 caps if he'd stayed fit.  Then you had the likes of likes of Dave McPherson, Gary Gillespie and Roy Aitken as well.

David Weir I grant you was a late developer but that was down to his unorthodox approach of going through the US college system, so I don't think you can use him as an example.  If he had started as a pro earlier he would have most likely been capped earlier - it might also be one of the reasons he was able to play into his 40s.

I'm not saying players don't get better as they get older, of course they do, but it's very rare that you get players kicking around the lower leagues at the age of 25 who turn into international quality players.  There are always exceptions but for every one that comes through I could give you 100 examples of players who were talked up and ultimately never amounted to anything.

Chat you know what, get banged!

Jamie Vardy's having a party....

[ErsatzThistle]

15 hours ago, aaid said:

 

Nonsense.  Colin Hendry was not a late developer. He had been playing for Man City in the old first division for about three years, and Blackburn in the second division before getting his international debut.  I don't think there was a huge difference in Colin Hendry Between the ages of 23 and  27, other than that he was playing in a better team. The reason why it took him so long to get a cap was simply because there were much better centre halves a available at the time.  In the late 80s/early 90s, defence and in particular central defence was a real strength for us.  

We had the likes of Alex McLeish and Richard Gough both of whom you could make a case for being among the very best to have played in that position for Scotland.  Craig Levein and Alan McLaren were exceptional talents whose careers were brought to a premature end through injury, McLaren in particular could have come close to 100 caps if he'd stayed fit.  Then you had the likes of likes of Dave McPherson, Gary Gillespie and Roy Aitken as well.

David Weir I grant you was a late developer but that was down to his unorthodox approach of going through the US college system, so I don't think you can use him as an example.  If he had started as a pro earlier he would have most likely been capped earlier - it might also be one of the reasons he was able to play into his 40s. 

I'm not saying players don't get better as they get older, of course they do, but it's very rare that you get players kicking around the lower leagues at the age of 25 who turn into international quality players.  There are always exceptions but for every one that comes through I could give you 100 examples of players who were talked up and ultimately never amounted to anything. 

No, Hendry and Weir were late developers. And as previously pointed out, so were Masson and Hartley.

Although if you believe in writing someone off just because they haven't made it to the top by the age of twenty five, then so be it. I call it narrow minded.

You should stop this strange obsession you have with starting stupid wee pedantic arguments with posters even when folk want to agree with you.

[aaid]

58 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Chat you know what, get banged!

Jamie Vardy's having a party....

I thought about Vardy when I wrote that post.  The guy is having an exceptional season no doubt about it, he may well be an exception.  

One thing I'll be interested to see is how well he fits into an England team that isn't set up to play to his strengths.

Not sure if you are old enough to remember but under Clough, there were lots of players who were really good for Forest but didn't look much when they went to other clubs.  Clough's talent w to put a team together that used the strengths of his players and get players playing above their natural level.

i think there's a bit of that going on with Leicester at the moment.

[ProudScot]

22 minutes ago, aaid said:

I thought about Vardy when I wrote that post.  The guy is having an exceptional season no doubt about it, he may well be an exception.

One thing I'll be interested to see is how well he fits into an England team that isn't set up to play to his strengths.

Not sure if you are old enough to remember but under Clough, there were lots of players who were really good for Forest but didn't look much when they went to other clubs.  Clough's talent w to put a team together that used the strengths of his players and get players playing above their natural level.

i think there's a bit of that going on with Leicester at the moment.

We could do with some of that magic with Scotland but in reverse. Players who dont do uch at their clubs but raise it for internationals and perform very well. I always thought that about John McGinlay - "Why has this guy been picked!?" Then he would score an important goal and play well. Don Hutchison too.

[Rab The Crab]

1 hour ago, ProudScot said:

We could do with some of that magic with Scotland but in reverse. Players who dont do uch at their clubs but raise it for internationals and perform very well. I always thought that about John McGinlay - "Why has this guy been picked!?" Then he would score an important goal and play well. Don Hutchison too.

You could say the same about McFadden actually.

Never really achieved much at club level despite having undoubted talent but had an excellent international career.

[Hertsscot]

On 11/02/2016 at 1:56 PM, aaid said:

The guy is 25 this year, can we please stop talking about players in their mid-20s as having potential.  If he's not international quality by that age, he never will be.

I accept the point that it might be that this is all we have to look forward to as a centre back but lets not pretend we're unearthing hidden gems.

Not always so. Graham Alexander is another one in recent years who only made his Scotland debut at 30 or 31 after spending most of his career kicking around the English lower divisions and had a very good international career.

[Goozay]

Donald Love should be amongst the Under 21s that get called up for the Italy and France games.

[DoonTheSlope]

John McGinn is being tipped by Stuart McCall to make an appearance in the squads by the sounds of things

 

I'd delighted to see a Hibs player get called up again but he's not exactly playing the against top class opposition week in week out

[er yir macaroon]

McGinn will be Scotland captain one day. Murphy is worth a call up. Pace up front is essential and his game suits the counter attack.

[TartanDave]

If, as has been suggested, there will be almost two different teams, I think it's important we blend youth and experience in each line up, for me I'd go something along lines of...

Marshall with Bain/Archer getting 30+

Paterson  Martin   Hanley   Tierney

            Fletcher  Someone with a lack of international experience (Mowatt, McGinn, Bridcutt as examples)

Snodgrass  Cairney  Phillips

                   Rhodes 

 

Gordon with Bain Archer getting 30+

Love Cooper Hanley  Robertson

    Morrison  (Mowatt Mcginn Bridcutt)

Nicholson     Naismith      Ritchie

                  Griffiths/Fletcher

 

Aware the second has some bold calls, I think Love and Nicholson are worth a go, Love is at Man United so must have "something" and Nicholson has always impressed me and seems to have a lot of potential. I would have liked Ryan Fraser to get a shot but injury has buggered that. Perhaps Christie may start getting some minutes before then. Quite excited for these games, be nice to see some fresh faces. 

[runningtings]

I'd like to see more of Bain, Love, Cooper, Tierney, McGinn and Armstrong.

Also, get Bannan back in the squad and give Griffiths another chance up front, his goalscoring record is excellent.

 

                 Bain

Love Cooper Hanley  Tierney

         Brown Armstrong

Bannan     Naismith      Robertson

                  Griffiths

 

Edited February 22, 2016 by runningtings

[Geed]

Players I would like to see be given a start in these 2 games would be, Leigh Griffiths,  Scott Arfield, Barry Bannan, Robert Snodgrass, Jordan Rhodes and Ross McCormack all playing well for there clubs

[ErsatzThistle]

Ehm, what exactly has Donald Love done to deserve a call up ? 

"But he's at Man Utd" is not a good enough reason. Should we just call up any Scottish young player who turns up on the books of Man Utd or Liverpool in future "just because". Can think think of plenty of really pish players who came through the youth systems at big, flashy clubs like that.

My team for the first match would be:

Marshall, Paterson, Martin, Hanley, Robertson, D Fletcher, Bannan, Snodgrass, Phillips, Naismith, S Fletcher.

With Tierney, Bridcutt, Griffiths, Rhodes, Cairney and Cooper involved over the two matches

Tierney and Gordon are the only Celtic players I'd have in the squad. No Rangers players are good enough and I'd despair if Strachan gives way to media pressure and wastes valuable playing time on Holt, Wallace, Wilson and co.

Edited February 22, 2016 by ErsatzThistle

[Hertsscot]

I note that Love is not playing for United tonight, calls for a Scotland call up maybe a wee bit premature.

[ErsatzThistle]

Just realised that I posted Tierney and Gordon are the only Celtic players I'd consider but I'd already had Griffith's down for game time.  Fail on my part. Just to be clear, Tierney, Gordon and Griffiths are the only Celtic players I'd consider.

20 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I note that Love is not playing for United tonight, calls for a Scotland call up maybe a wee bit premature.

He was horrific against FC Midtjylland.

I really do want to be positive about young Scots players but Donald Love looked like a young guy who had won a competition to play a game for Man Utd.

[PASTA Mick]

55 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I note that Love is not playing for United tonight, calls for a Scotland call up maybe a wee bit premature.

He is cup tied. 

[Kirk]

3 hours ago, PASTA Mick said:

He is pish. 

 

[ErsatzThistle]

7 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

My team for the first match would be:

Marshall, Paterson, Martin, Hanley, Robertson, D Fletcher, Bannan, Snodgrass, Phillips, Naismith, S Fletcher.

With Tierney, Bridcutt, Griffiths, Rhodes, Cairney and Cooper involved over the two matches

Tierney and Gordon are the only Celtic players I'd have in the squad. No Rangers players are good enough and I'd despair if Strachan gives way to media pressure and wastes valuable playing time on Holt, Wallace, Wilson and co.

Scratch that post. I was talking even more pish than usual and made a few mistakes. Want to do that post again !

Moral of the story is, read over everything before you post ! 

Anyway I'll start again. The team I want to play the Czech Republic is:

Marshall, Paterson, Martin, Hanley, Robertson, D Fletcher, Bannan, Snodgrass, Ritchie, Naismith, S Fletcher.

But I sadly think that the team Strachan wants is:

Marshall, Hutton, Martin, Hanley, Robertson, Brown, Mulgrew, Maloney, Forrest, Naismith, S Fletcher.

It's so frustrating but I really can't see Strachan dropping any of his favourites, no matter how old they are getting or however alarming their decline in form is.

There's only three Celtic players at present worth including - Tierney, Griffiths and Gordon. Whilst I hope WGS does not give in to media pressure and include any of these supposed superstars that play for Rangers, none are currently good enough.

This is a such a good opportunity for any of - Graeme Shinnie, Calum Paterson, Keiran Tierney, Tom Cairney, Liam Cooper and maybe even Jamie Murphy to make the step up. Liam Bridcutt and Jordan Rhodes should be given another chance. Does Strachan feel the same way ? I have my doubts.

Prove me wrong WGS. Ditch yesterdays men and go with young(ish), untested players.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ErsatzThistle

[PASTA Mick]

5 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Scratch that post. I was talking even more pish than usual and made a few mistakes. Want to do that post again !

Moral of the story is, read over everything before you post ! 

Anyway I'll start again. The team I want to play the Czech Republic is:

Marshall, Paterson, Martin, Hanley, Robertson, D Fletcher, Bannan, Snodgrass, Ritchie, Naismith, S Fletcher.

But I sadly think that the team Strachan wants is:

Marshall, Hutton, Martin, Hanley, Robertson, Brown, Mulgrew, Maloney, Forrest, Naismith, S Fletcher.

It's so frustrating but I really can't see Strachan dropping any of his favourites, no matter how old they are getting or however alarming their decline in form is.

There's only three Celtic players at present worth including - Tierney, Griffiths and Gordon. Whilst I hope WGS does not give in to media pressure and include any of these supposed superstars that play for Rangers, none are currently good enough.

This is a such a good opportunity for any of - Graeme Shinnie, Calum Paterson, Keiran Tierney, Tom Cairney, Liam Cooper and maybe even Jamie Murphy to make the step up. Liam Bridcutt and Jordan Rhodes should be given another chance. Does Strachan feel the same way ? I have my doubts.

Prove me wrong WGS. Ditch yesterdays men and go with young(ish), untested players.

You do know the plan is to pick two different squads, right?

There will be a mix of the established players and some new faces in each squad.

Ok would guess that a lot of the players you've mentioned will get into one of the squads. 

[Mazziessc]

On 21/02/2016 at 0:22 PM, TartanDave said:

Love Cooper Hanley  Robertson

Bold defence but this could be a great defence in a few years if cooper fullfils his potential, AND assuming the Love lives up to the HYPE (no real potential shown and the hype has mainly come from fans of the national side)

 

7 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

It's so frustrating but I really can't see Strachan dropping any of his favourites, no matter how old they are getting or however alarming their decline in form is.

There's only three Celtic players at present worth including - Tierney, Griffiths and Gordon. Whilst I hope WGS does not give in to media pressure and include any of these supposed superstars that play for Rangers, none are currently good enough.

This is a such a good opportunity for any of - Graeme Shinnie, Calum Paterson, Keiran Tierney, Tom Cairney, Liam Cooper and maybe even Jamie Murphy to make the step up. Liam Bridcutt and Jordan Rhodes should be given another chance. Does Strachan feel the same way ? I have my doubts.

 

In bold pretty much spot on. Strachan has a history of having favourites and I can see the likes of Hutton,Brown,Mulgrew and even Forrest being an integral part of his plans not only for the friendlies but the qualifiers too.

Im not sure I follow where or even who you find are "supposed superstars" at Rangers. There is none in Scotland at ANY club. However, Lee Walace should at least get some game time. Why? Because if we are going to give an opportuinity to Paterson, Tierney, Cairney, and even the affore mentioned Mowatt (not that any of these lads dont deserve it) I understand how Wallace's competition is somewhat weaker than the above, but I struggle to see how his overall ability is so bad in comparison that he doesn't deserve a chance.

IMO Griffiths should get all or most of a game from the start. I am sure he will not displace Fletcher for anything competitive but I feel he has earned the right to substatial game time and at least the chance to contest Fletcher for the position.

Rhodes is another who IMO should be giving a decent chance in one of these games I hope he gets half a game or more, sticking him on for the last 10 mins wont do.

I'll go for:

1ST squad

Marshall, Paterson, Martin, Hanley, Robertson,D Fletcher,Birdcutt,Naismith,Maloney,Snodgrass,Griffiths

2ND Squad,

Bain/Gordon,Love/Patterson,Cooper,Hanley,Tierney,D Fletcher,Bannan,Ritchie,Cairney,Phillips,Rhodes

Game time for:John McGinn,Jamie Murphy,Mowatt,Nicholson,Armstrong,Scott Arfield, Ross McCormack,S Fletcher,Scott Brown,Graeme Shinnie and Lee Wallace.

[aaid]

27 minutes ago, Mazziessc said:

 

In bold pretty much spot on. Strachan has a history of having favourites and I can see the likes of Hutton,Brown,Mulgrew and even Forrest being an integral part of his plans not only for the friendlies but the qualifiers too.

 

Mulgrew is a good pick if only for his versatility.  He can play Central Defence, holding midfielder and at a push left back.   That gives you a lot of options both in terms of cover but also for tactical changes during games.

[Rossy]

The best, and most consistent player, in the Scottish Premiership this season outside Griffiths has been Graham Shinnie. Outstanding at left-back and in midfield.

Yet he's only been mentioned on here in one or two posts.

Bizarre... 

[ErsatzThistle]

10 hours ago, PASTA Mick said:

You do know the plan is to pick two different squads, right?

There will be a mix of the established players and some new faces in each squad.

Ok would guess that a lot of the players you've mentioned will get into one of the squads. 

I'm well aware of what Strachan said.

Unfortunately the impression I get from him is that he will just use the same old players with one or two token youths brought into the squad just to train. 

Liam Bridcutt or Charlie Mulgrew ? He'll choose Mulgrew.

Calum Paterson or Alan Hutton ? He'll choose Hutton.

Tom Cairney or Shaun Maloney ? He'll choose Maloney.

That's not good.

Said it before and I'll say it again - Strachan isn't above criticism. Some people jump through hoops defending him when he fecks up.

[ErsatzThistle]

8 hours ago, Mazziessc said:

Bold defence but this could be a great defence in a few years if cooper fullfils his potential, AND assuming the Love lives up to the HYPE (no real potential shown and the hype has mainly come from fans of the national side)

 

In bold pretty much spot on. Strachan has a history of having favourites and I can see the likes of Hutton,Brown,Mulgrew and even Forrest being an integral part of his plans not only for the friendlies but the qualifiers too.

Im not sure I follow where or even who you find are "supposed superstars" at Rangers. There is none in Scotland at ANY club. However, Lee Walace should at least get some game time. Why? Because if we are going to give an opportuinity to Paterson, Tierney, Cairney, and even the affore mentioned Mowatt (not that any of these lads dont deserve it) I understand how Wallace's competition is somewhat weaker than the above, but I struggle to see how his overall ability is so bad in comparison that he doesn't deserve a chance.

IMO Griffiths should get all or most of a game from the start. I am sure he will not displace Fletcher for anything competitive but I feel he has earned the right to substatial game time and at least the chance to contest Fletcher for the position.

Rhodes is another who IMO should be giving a decent chance in one of these games I hope he gets half a game or more, sticking him on for the last 10 mins wont do.

I'll go for:

1ST squad

Marshall, Paterson, Martin, Hanley, Robertson,D Fletcher,Birdcutt,Naismith,Maloney,Snodgrass,Griffiths

2ND Squad,

Bain/Gordon,Love/Patterson,Cooper,Hanley,Tierney,D Fletcher,Bannan,Ritchie,Cairney,Phillips,Rhodes

Game time for:John McGinn,Jamie Murphy,Mowatt,Nicholson,Armstrong,Scott Arfield, Ross McCormack,S Fletcher,Scott Brown,Graeme Shinnie and Lee Wallace.

You don't do sarcasm I take it ?

My reference to "supposed superstars" is a reference to the Rangurz fan boy journalists in the last few months who have been touting Holt, Wilson, Mackay etc for call ups.

Lee Wallace over Andy Robertson, Keiran Tierney or Graeme Shinnie at left back ? No thanks. At least the aforementioned three are better players and also playing at a higher level than him. Wallace willingly threw away his Scotland career to earn easy money playing against part timers for the last few years.

Where's your proof that Alex Mowatt has switched nationality to Scotland ? 

Did you not see that Scott Arfield declared for Canada the other week ? He's their player now.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ErsatzThistle