86glebestreet Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Murray wins in China Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 10 hours ago, 86glebestreet said: Murray wins in China Good stuff. Putting himself in a position to compete for number one next year. Needs a good end of year championships though, and he's never really had one of those before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 It is not out of the question that he could be in a position to take No.1 slot by the end of the year but like biffer says his record at the 02 has been awful. Murray has not got many points to defend in Shanghai whereas Novak is defending 1000 points so there could be another few hundred points swing in Andy's favour by the end of this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Murray has been impressive in Shanghai so far. He has beaten Steve Johnson and Lucas Pouille for the loss of a total of seven games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
min Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Another routine QF win for Andy and he appears to be playing the best tennis of his career. Hopefully a final meeting with Djokovic and then we'll really see where both their games are - time to start to redress the very poor head-to head-stats!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Djokovic loses in straight sets in the semi against Bautista-Agut. This means he drops 640 points from his ranking total and with Murray still in with a strong chance of the title (he plays Simon in the semi shortly) Andy could cut the lead to Djokovic by around 1000 points in total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Andy Murray beats Gilles Simon in straight sets to reach the final of the Shanghai Masters - his ninth straight win in straight sets. It means another slice of points taken out of Novak's lead. After Shanghai Murray will next play in an ATP500 tournament in Vienna which Novak will not be playing in (for now) so another opportunity there to claw more points back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Could end up as a straight shoot out between the two of them at the O2 for the end of year world number one spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
min Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Nice one! Masters title number 13 without losing a set. Now only about 2500 points off of the number one spot which is now definitely within reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 22 minutes ago, min said: Nice one! Masters title number 13 without losing a set. Now only about 2500 points off of the number one spot which is now definitely within reach. It is his 10th Masters 1000 title and puts him level with Roger Federer. As for the rankings - sources keep saying the lead is 915 points. I think that figure is being quoted as Djokovic picked up 1600 points for winning the WTF last year and those points drop off his total in the next few weeks before this year's WTF. That is I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
min Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 36 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said: It is his 10th Masters 1000 title and puts him level with Roger Federer. As for the rankings - sources keep saying the lead is 915 points. I think that figure is being quoted as Djokovic picked up 1600 points for winning the WTF last year and those points drop off his total in the next few weeks before this year's WTF. That is I understand it. It's his 13th Masters title compared to Federer's 24th, using any meaningful comparison. To suggest otherwise is like saying Celtic have only won the league three times because the SPFL was only formed three years ago. Yes, The 915 points being mentioned is for the 2016 ATP race, not the rolling 12 month official rankings. Djokovic also has 1000 points to defend in Paris, so they could go into the Tour Finals practically neck and neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Just now, min said: It's his 13th Masters title compared to Federer's 24th, using any meaningful comparison. To suggest otherwise is like saying Celtic have only won the league three times because the SPFL was only formed three years ago. Yes, The 915 points being mentioned is for the 2016 ATP race, not the rolling 12 month official rankings. Djokovic also has 1000 points to defend in Paris, so they could go into the Tour Finals practically neck and neck. Fair enough. Yes realize the year end race is being talked of as well but with Djokovic losing his WTF points from last year before this year's WTF thewn it pulls his rankings lead back to something near identical to the year ending ranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said: Yes realize the year end race is being talked of as well but with Djokovic losing his WTF points from last year before this year's WTF thewn it pulls his rankings lead back to something near identical to the year ending ranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Toepoke said: Yes that is how the ranking system works. Murray for example is defending 600 points he won in the Paris Masters (coming up soon which he got for reaching the final) and Djokovic won there last year so is defending 1000 points. If either of them has a poor tournament they will be dropping a shed load of points from their total. Same applies to the World Tour Final (WTF) points and Djokovic will soon be dropping 1600 of them. If you needed clarification which I don't think you did now. Edited October 16, 2016 by Caledonian Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
min Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Looking at the entry lists, Murray is playing the Vienna 500 the week after next whereas Djokovic isn't playing before Paris. Could mean another few hundred points to the good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Rankings updated this morning, Djokovic 12,900, Murray 10,485. Djokovic has 2,300 points to defend this year, Murray 1,045. So for the end of year standings, it's 10,600 v 9,440. One Masters 1000 series (1000 for the winner, 600 for runner up) and the end of year championships to come (plus a few 500 events). End of year championship points are complex, up to 1500 for the winner, but it also depends on winning matches in the round robin; Djokovic got 1300 for winning it last year. Basically Andy needs to get 1200 points more than Djokovic in the remaining tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 2 hours ago, biffer said: Rankings updated this morning, Djokovic 12,900, Murray 10,485. Djokovic has 2,300 points to defend this year, Murray 1,045. So for the end of year standings, it's 10,600 v 9,440. One Masters 1000 series (1000 for the winner, 600 for runner up) and the end of year championships to come (plus a few 500 events). End of year championship points are complex, up to 1500 for the winner, but it also depends on winning matches in the round robin; Djokovic got 1300 for winning it last year. Basically Andy needs to get 1200 points more than Djokovic in the remaining tournaments. Murray was saying after his win yesterday that he thinks his best chance of getting #1 is around Indian Wells/Miami next year, where he is defending very little (90 points) and Djokovic is defending 2 titles (2000 points). A decent Tour Finals performance (Murray is defending only 200 points from last year, Djokovic 1300) and a good start to 2017 should see him get to number 1. A lot of tennis to be played between now and then though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 If he can't consistently beat Novak in the big competitions he isn't the best tennis player, although I understand putting results through an arbitrary formula may contradict me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 22 hours ago, phart said: If he can't consistently beat Novak in the big competitions he isn't the best tennis player, although I understand putting results through an arbitrary formula may contradict me. It doesn't work like that though. Roger Federer hung onto the world No.1 slot through times when he was Rafa Nadal's bunny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 22 hours ago, phart said: If he can't consistently beat Novak in the big competitions he isn't the best tennis player, although I understand putting results through an arbitrary formula may contradict me. If Novak can't stay in tournaments long enough for him to play (and probably beat) Andy then Andy will eventually be the better player. In all the time that Tiger was the world number 1 golfer he never beat me, not even once. As you say it depends on the formula that is used. If it was just down to who wins between Novak and Andy when they play each other then Novak would probably always be number one. But it's not. The formula they use, takes into account how well they play against all the other folk as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Second half of this year Murray has been the better player. Djokovic has won one tournament since the French Open (Toronto Masters). Murray has won Wimbledon, the Olympics, Shanghai Masters and the China Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, biffer said: Second half of this year Murray has been the better player. Djokovic has won one tournament since the French Open (Toronto Masters). Murray has won Wimbledon, the Olympics, Shanghai Masters and the China Open. Exactly that's the metrics i would use personally. Wimbledon and the Olympics. Plus head to head against the best players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 You can't just use tournaments won though, because that would mean you'd only have a dozen or so players with any ranking at all. So it makes sense to rate people on how far into a tournament they get as well, so credit for getting to the final, less for the semi etc, yeah? And obviously bigger tournaments get more impact on the ranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 On 19/10/2016 at 8:07 AM, biffer said: You can't just use tournaments won though, because that would mean you'd only have a dozen or so players with any ranking at all. So it makes sense to rate people on how far into a tournament they get as well, so credit for getting to the final, less for the semi etc, yeah? And obviously bigger tournaments get more impact on the ranking. 100%, although i'm looking at it from another angle, who is number 1,however the ranking i'm talking about is settling the number one spot as opposed to ranking the complete pool, which is obviously needed to set up tournaments and the like. I know the rankings are needed, but to be the best you imho you have to be the best at the tournaments , which as you say Murray has been doing 2nd half of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 On 25/10/2016 at 9:32 PM, phart said: 100%, although i'm looking at it from another angle, who is number 1,however the ranking i'm talking about is settling the number one spot as opposed to ranking the complete pool, which is obviously needed to set up tournaments and the like. I know the rankings are needed, but to be the best you imho you have to be the best at the tournaments , which as you say Murray has been doing 2nd half of the year. The difficulty there though is if you rank number one in a different way from everyone else you can end up with two number ones, or none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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