New Council Tax proposals

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, biffer said:

The thing that affects me is that new builds are valued on their cost at the time they're built but other houses stick with their 1991 valuation. 

And the 1991 survey was done in such a rush that many properties were "valued" without a visit to the house. Some of them were done by somebody who didn't even set foot on the street. 

There will be big pressure for a new evaluation to be done . I think they did it in Wales. There is no reason why it can't be done here. 

[Scunnered]

9 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

And the 1991 survey was done in such a rush that many properties were "valued" without a visit to the house. Some of them were done by somebody who didn't even set foot on the street. 

I did not know that.

[Orraloon]

57 minutes ago, Scunnered said:

I did not know that.

Ironically, a lot of it could be done today (and much more accurately) from sitting in a office, as so much of the information is computerised. That wasn't possible back in 1991. The only way to do it, anywhere near properly, was to survey the house but they just didn't have the time or the resources to do it.

[aaid]

Does anyone know how local government funding works in other European countries of a similar size to Scotland, eg Denmark, Finland, Ireland?   Personally I think that local sales tax is a good method like they have in the US but I think that EU rules don't allow varying rates of VAT by region within a member state, hence why VAT cannot be fully devolved. 

In the UK the whole system of local government funding seems to be property based, either council tax and business rates.  I can understand why that's the case as it's easy to collect and difficult to avoid but I'd be interested in knowing what happens in other countries. 

[Lion Rampant]

13 hours ago, Topcat said:

band G bud - you must live in a palace in one of Glasgow's most salubrious neighbourhoods! 

I wish!

I stay in a Persimmon house in Baillieston, spitting distance from the M8. There's no way my house should be in the band it is in, hence why I am arguing with the council.

The guy next door stays in a similar house to me (not exactly the same) and both houses were sold at the same value by Persimmon and were both valued at the same by our respective mortgage companies but he's in band F.

I know that he's worried if I push it too far with the council that they are more likely to bump him up than drop me down

Edited to add; Persimmon were also told by the council that we'd be in Band F, but that changed when people started moving in

Edited March 3, 2016 by Lion Rampant

[min]

4 hours ago, biffer said:

The thing that affects me is that new builds are valued on their cost at the time they're built but other houses stick with their 1991 valuation.

 

That's not correct. In Scotland, new builds are indexed back to 1991 prices.

I bought a new build in 2006 for £208k. It is in Band F (£80k-£106k).

[Auld_Reekie]

SNP membership wavering. At least one vote definitely going Green now.

A complete lack of ambition in order to keep their huge vote sewn up. P*sh in my opinion. They should be willing to come forward and risk 10% of their vote in order to do something more radical. Pull it off and that 10% will come back.

Hope some of the good Green candidates get elected and make a nuisance of themselves on this, especially Andy Wightman.

If Labour have any sense they'll throw caution to the wind and go for a full revaluation and expose this for what it is. Might not win them many votes but they're unlikely to lose any either, and it would help stabilise the cosy consensus around council tax.

SNP should be rightly slaughtered for this.

[phart]

11 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

SNP membership wavering. At least one vote definitely going Green now.

A complete lack of ambition in order to keep their huge vote sewn up. P*sh in my opinion. They should be willing to come forward and risk 10% of their vote in order to do something more radical. Pull it off and that 10% will come back.

Hope some of the good Green candidates get elected and make a nuisance of themselves on this, especially Andy Wightman.

If Labour have any sense they'll throw caution to the wind and go for a full revaluation and expose this for what it is. Might not win them many votes but they're unlikely to lose any either, and it would help stabilise the cosy consensus around council tax.

SNP should be rightly slaughtered for this.

Thomas Sowell cleared it up for me. Paraphrase, once you realise a politician has 2 priorities, one to get elected and then more importantly to stay elected and whatever else, regardless of how noble, is always a distant 3rd

[Auld_Reekie]

Yep. Always known that to be the case which is why Ive long warned people to stop thinking SNP politicians will be any different to the rest. Still best party in Scotland by some distance for me but the lack of a credible alternative is biggest concern right now. While I wouldnt want them in power, happy for a larger block of Greens to offer some kind of radical pressure. Certainly wont be coming from the others, that's for sure.

[hampden_loon2878]

5 hours ago, Auld_Reekie said:

SNP membership wavering. At least one vote definitely going Green now.

A complete lack of ambition in order to keep their huge vote sewn up. P*sh in my opinion. They should be willing to come forward and risk 10% of their vote in order to do something more radical. Pull it off and that 10% will come back.

Hope some of the good Green candidates get elected and make a nuisance of themselves on this, especially Andy Wightman.

If Labour have any sense they'll throw caution to the wind and go for a full revaluation and expose this for what it is. Might not win them many votes but they're unlikely to lose any either, and it would help stabilise the cosy consensus around council tax.

SNP should be rightly slaughtered for this.

Rather vote tory than that green tree hugging brigade

[Orraloon]

4 hours ago, Auld_Reekie said:

SNP membership wavering. At least one vote definitely going Green now.

A complete lack of ambition in order to keep their huge vote sewn up. P*sh in my opinion. They should be willing to come forward and risk 10% of their vote in order to do something more radical. Pull it off and that 10% will come back.

Hope some of the good Green candidates get elected and make a nuisance of themselves on this, especially Andy Wightman.

If Labour have any sense they'll throw caution to the wind and go for a full revaluation and expose this for what it is. Might not win them many votes but they're unlikely to lose any either, and it would help stabilise the cosy consensus around council tax.

SNP should be rightly slaughtered for this.

I think that you might be in one of the few regions where a transfer of list votes from SNP to Green could result in an extra Green MSP. SNP got none of the list seats in Lothian last time round and are unlikely to get one this time either. That's assuming SNP hold onto their 8 constituencies. If the Greens can persuade some SNP voters to give them their list vote, and they can get a good chunk of Margo's 18,000 votes, and maybe pick up some of the 15,000 Lib Dem support (which I'm hoping will collapse), they might just sneak a second list seat in Lothian.

I can't see this type of "tactical" voting working anywhere else though.  

If too many SNP voters decide to switch their list votes to the Greens in the other regions it will probably just help the Tories and Labour.

 

[Auld_Reekie]

Im not actually in Lothian region unfortunately so will need to weigh up list choice carefully. Im uncomfortable with notion I should just vote SNP twice though. There has to be a way though in which I can signal unhappiness at a lack of ambition. Maybe it's finally time to switch membership to Greens.

[aaid]

17 hours ago, Orraloon said:

If the Greens can persuade some SNP voters to give them their list vote, and they can get a good chunk of Margo's 18,000 votes, and maybe pick up some of the 15,000 Lib Dem support (which I'm hoping will collapse), they might just sneak a second list seat in Lothian.

There's a bit of a problem with that.  

I've just looked at the 2011 results for Lothian and looked at what would have happened if Margo hadn't stood.  I've split her votes 50/50 between the Greens and the SNP.  I think that's fair as I'd doubt a significant number of her votes would have gone to any of the other Unionist parties.

If my calculations are correct then - a big if - then the Lib Dems that would have picked up the final seat, albeit by a slender margin of 122 votes on the final round.  

I also think that the LIb Dems have bottomed out.  They took a big hit in 2011 in Scotland as a result of going in to government in Westminster and that was replicated across the UK last year.  I don't think they will recover any time soon but I don't think they will fall any further.  They have their core vote of about 6-8% that will see them pick up the odd list seat.  What will be interesting is what impact the fallout from Carmichael will have in Orkney and Shetland.

I really think that tactical voting is a real waste of time and is likely to end up in a different outcome from the one you are looking for.   Its only really workable in a FPTP by-election and even then can serve to motivate the vote of the opposite side.

[Auld_Reekie]

Just to be clear, Im not interested in tactical voting, Im just not convinced the SNP have earned both my votes and I feel Ill probably give my second vote to another party. If that let's a Labour or Tory MSP in, so be it. 

[Pool Q]

A missed opportunity really, they are strong enough electorally to do something meaningfully like look at a local income tax. Band G in Edinburgh, this will be about £30pm for us.

[DoonTheSlope]

1 hour ago, Auld_Reekie said:

Just to be clear, Im not interested in tactical voting, Im just not convinced the SNP have earned both my votes and I feel Ill probably give my second vote to another party. If that let's a Labour or Tory MSP in, so be it. 

At the end of the day they're all lying bastards

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

There's a bit of a problem with that.  

I've just looked at the 2011 results for Lothian and looked at what would have happened if Margo hadn't stood.  I've split her votes 50/50 between the Greens and the SNP.  I think that's fair as I'd doubt a significant number of her votes would have gone to any of the other Unionist parties.

If my calculations are correct then - a big if - then the Lib Dems that would have picked up the final seat, albeit by a slender margin of 122 votes on the final round.  

I also think that the LIb Dems have bottomed out.  They took a big hit in 2011 in Scotland as a result of going in to government in Westminster and that was replicated across the UK last year.  I don't think they will recover any time soon but I don't think they will fall any further.  They have their core vote of about 6-8% that will see them pick up the odd list seat.  What will be interesting is what impact the fallout from Carmichael will have in Orkney and Shetland.

I really think that tactical voting is a real waste of time and is likely to end up in a different outcome from the one you are looking for.   Its only really workable in a FPTP by-election and even then can serve to motivate the vote of the opposite side.

Aye, you're probably right. I'm just looking for something interesting that might happen. Although I would like the Lib Dems to sink a bit deeper. We haven't seen how big the Carmichael effect will be yet. Maybe just wishful thinking on my part.

 

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, Pool Q said:

A missed opportunity really, they are strong enough electorally to do something meaningfully like look at a local income tax. Band G in Edinburgh, this will be about £30pm for us.

I can understand why they are being a wee bit careful. They won't be able to do much if they don't get another outright majority. That has to be their first priority, IMO.

[Orraloon]

4 hours ago, Auld_Reekie said:

Im not actually in Lothian region unfortunately so will need to weigh up list choice carefully. Im uncomfortable with notion I should just vote SNP twice though. There has to be a way though in which I can signal unhappiness at a lack of ambition. Maybe it's finally time to switch membership to Greens.

Sorry, I just assumed you were in Lothian when you mentioned Andy Wightman. In that case I would guess that you are unlikely to help get another Green MSP elected. 

If you are already a member of the SNP then maybe you should get involved. It's the only way to try to influence SNP policy.

[Auld_Reekie]

6 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Sorry, I just assumed you were in Lothian when you mentioned Andy Wightman. In that case I would guess that you are unlikely to help get another Green MSP elected. 

If you are already a member of the SNP then maybe you should get involved. It's the only way to try to influence SNP policy.

Meh. Even if I had the time, the thought of becoming involved in party politics makes me want to vomit.  Also, if I wanted to influence party policy I'd be better doing it in a party with 10000 members than one with 100000 members.

My involvement in the democratic process extends to 1) voting, 2) supporting a party with a membership fee and 3) talking pish on the internet in support of one or more parties I favour. Anymore than that, and it's a short step from becoming one of them. As such, if Im not happy, my vote goes or my membership goes, or both.

[aaid]

1 minute ago, Orraloon said:

Aye, you're probably right. I'm just looking for something interesting that might happen. Although I would like the Lib Dems to sink a bit deeper. We haven't seen how big the Carmichael effect will be yet. Maybe just wishful thinking on my part.

 

I'd say any effect would be localised to O&S, can't really see it translating to the mainland.  I think that any votes the Lib Dems were going to lose over being duplicitous they've already lost, Carmichael just reinforces that.  A long way back for them.  

O&S is interesting, on the surface Carmichael should backfire on them there - especially Tavish Scott who allowed himself to get dragged into it, also I think Shetland leans slightly more to the SNP than Orkney.  Liam McArthur appears to have kept his head down a bit more.  I doubt either of them will be looking for endorsements from the bold Alastair.    Perversely, it could have the opposite effect and perhaps harden the Lib Dem support.

1 minute ago, Orraloon said:

I can understand why they are being a wee bit careful. They won't be able to do much if they don't get another outright majority. That has to be their first priority, IMO.

I remember reading a comment in an interview with Kezia Dugdale - bear with me - maybe six months ago..  I'll try and dig it out but from what I remember and to paraphrase, she was asked basically why is your default position to oppose everything the SNP do when there are actually a lot of policies where they aren't that far apart.  She made the point that Scotland has been in a permanent election mode for the last 2 years or so and that made it very difficult for parties to get together and work together and that once the elections were out the way things might be different.  Now I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen but I think her general point is valid.  Always having one eye on an upcoming election or referendum means the parties - or at least those with a chance of being elected - are more likely to play it safe.

Remember the voting system for the Scottish Parliament is designed to return either coalition or minority governments, majority governments are not supposed to happen.  

Its worth remembering that in spite of the SNP strong showing in the polls and all the bollocks talk about a one party state, at this point in time, the SNP has a majority of ONE in Holyrood.

[Orraloon]

15 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

Meh. Even if I had the time, the thought of becoming involved in party politics makes me want to vomit.  Also, if I wanted to influence party policy I'd be better doing it in a party with 10000 members than one with 100000 members.

 

Are you thinking about joining the Labour party?

[Orraloon]

14 minutes ago, aaid said:

 

O&S is interesting, on the surface Carmichael should backfire on them there - especially Tavish Scott who allowed himself to get dragged into it, also I think Shetland leans slightly more to the SNP than Orkney.  Liam McArthur appears to have kept his head down a bit more.  I doubt either of them will be looking for endorsements from the bold Alastair.    Perversely, it could have the opposite effect and perhaps harden the Lib Dem support.

 

Not sure how much will change there. If the Lib Dems were to lose one or both the constituency seats they will probably just get regional seats instead. 

[Orraloon]

21 minutes ago, aaid said:

 

I remember reading a comment in an interview with Kezia Dugdale - bear with me - maybe six months ago..  I'll try and dig it out but from what I remember and to paraphrase, she was asked basically why is your default position to oppose everything the SNP do when there are actually a lot of policies where they aren't that far apart.  She made the point that Scotland has been in a permanent election mode for the last 2 years or so and that made it very difficult for parties to get together and work together and that once the elections were out the way things might be different.  Now I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen but I think her general point is valid.  Always having one eye on an upcoming election or referendum means the parties - or at least those with a chance of being elected - are more likely to play it safe.

 

Kez might not be in charge after the election, although I'm not sure that anybody else wants the job. She might get another few years?

[Orraloon]

23 minutes ago, aaid said:

 

 

Remember the voting system for the Scottish Parliament is designed to return either coalition or minority governments, majority governments are not supposed to happen.  

Its worth remembering that in spite of the SNP strong showing in the polls and all the bollocks talk about a one party state, at this point in time, the SNP has a majority of ONE in Holyrood.

Exactly, which is why they can't afford to rock the boat too much. Winning an outright majority in 2011 was an amazing result. It will take an equally amazing result to do it again. Folk need to realise that it's not a foregone conclusion.