New Council Tax proposals

[aaid]

1 minute ago, Orraloon said:

Not sure how much will change there. If the Lib Dems were to lose one or both the constituency seats they will probably just get regional seats instead. 

Probably but losing your seat in the constituency is pretty embarrasing, they also haven't put either Tavish Scott or Liam McArthur on the list.

[Orraloon]

1 minute ago, aaid said:

Probably but losing your seat in the constituency is pretty embarrasing, they also haven't put either Tavish Scott or Liam McArthur on the list.

Didn't know that. Who is top of their list?

[aaid]

12 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Didn't know that. Who is top of their list?

Carolyn Caddick and David Green for Highlands & Islands - they are only naming two people.

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/inside-politics/scottish-liberal-democrat-regional-list-candidates

Danus Skene is standing against Scott in Shetland.

Edited March 4, 2016 by aaid

[Auld_Reekie]

Meh. I'd be quite happy for the SNP to lose their majority for exactly those reasons. It's a straight-jacket and for some reason is now accepted as a good thing, when in fact it's robbed them of all ambition. Give me the days of being a minority any day of the week. SNP minority propped up with a loose arrangement with 10 or so Greens and I'd be over the moon.

[Orraloon]

14 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

Meh. I'd be quite happy for the SNP to lose their majority for exactly those reasons. It's a straight-jacket and for some reason is now accepted as a good thing, when in fact it's robbed them of all ambition. Give me the days of being a minority any day of the week. SNP minority propped up with a loose arrangement with 10 or so Greens and I'd be over the moon.

Greens have no chance of getting anywhere near 10 MSPs. 4 at most, I would guess.

[Ally Bongo]

CIPFA hail the reform as "imaginative and progressive"

http://ponsonbypost.com/index.php/news/68-public-finance-expert-hails-imaginative-and-progressive-council-tax-reform

 

[phart]

Progressive is turning into a buzz word that tells you nothing. 

For instance from the original cited article.

"The proposals taken together do introduce a measure of progression to local finances and that is to be welcomed."

What does progression mean?, an introduction of progressive tax reform. It was progressive already.

OK using income tax receipts locally is the progressive bit, missed that on the first read. That is an interesting proposal i prefer local government if i have to have government.

Edited March 5, 2016 by phart
misread article.

[fishcumnock]

Nobody voting solidarity on the list ?

[Scunnered]

58 minutes ago, fishcumnock said:

Nobody voting solidarity on the list ?

You'd have to be off your nut!

[Orraloon]

41 minutes ago, Scunnered said:

You'd have to be off your nut!

Answer the question.

[fishcumnock]

Aye, just answer the fukkin question !

[Lamia]

On 4 March 2016 at 2:35 PM, Auld_Reekie said:

 

[Lamia]

On 4 March 2016 at 2:46 PM, Pool Q said:

A missed opportunity really, they are strong enough electorally to do something meaningfully like look at a local income tax. Band G in Edinburgh, this will be about £30pm for us.

It is much worse than that! It is a betrayal of what they have been promising and if the opposition don't take advantage of this they really are useless.

[Dave78]

On 4/3/2016 at 4:50 PM, aaid said:

I remember reading a comment in an interview with Kezia Dugdale - bear with me - maybe six months ago..  I'll try and dig it out but from what I remember and to paraphrase, she was asked basically why is your default position to oppose everything the SNP do when there are actually a lot of policies where they aren't that far apart.  She made the point that Scotland has been in a permanent election mode for the last 2 years or so and that made it very difficult for parties to get together and work together and that once the elections were out the way things might be different.  Now I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen but I think her general point is valid.  Always having one eye on an upcoming election or referendum means the parties - or at least those with a chance of being elected - are more likely to play it safe.

 

Ooft, never thought i'd ever read anything insightful from Kezia, but she makes a good point there.

On 4/3/2016 at 5:18 PM, Orraloon said:

Exactly, which is why they can't afford to rock the boat too much. Winning an outright majority in 2011 was an amazing result. It will take an equally amazing result to do it again. Folk need to realise that it's not a foregone conclusion.

Yep, i'd agree with this.

On 4/3/2016 at 5:38 PM, Auld_Reekie said:

Meh. I'd be quite happy for the SNP to lose their majority for exactly those reasons. It's a straight-jacket and for some reason is now accepted as a good thing, when in fact it's robbed them of all ambition. Give me the days of being a minority any day of the week. SNP minority propped up with a loose arrangement with 10 or so Greens and I'd be over the moon.

Fair enough, but where would that put us in regards to indyref2? Let's not forget the SNP's raison d'etre (if that's not already in the wanky phrases thread, it really should be! )

[Auld_Reekie]

On 3/5/2016 at 10:06 PM, Dave78 said:

Fair enough, but where would that put us in regards to indyref2? Let's not forget the SNP's raison d'etre (if that's not already in the wanky phrases thread, it really should be! )

The SNP's raison d'etre is independence, not a referendum on independence. With a referendum all but guaranteed (when, not if), the SNP need to start thinking about how they're going to win it and they won't win it by being woefully lacking in ambition. Here's me hoping they're going to get a set of balls on currency, but they can't even land a punch on the council tax. So it's kinda hard to see the SNP being any kind of driving force behind the radical policies that are going to be needed if and when we are to win independence. Im really only a member of the SNP as financial/electoral support of independence, but if feels as if my membership fee should go to a party that's going to invest it more wisely. More and more, it seems like the SNP strategy is to stand very still, hope the Tories continue to f*** everything up and wait for that 60% polling support. It's a risky approach that lacks any kind of inspiration, and I for one, am not that excited about the prospect of going into another referendum with the SNP no further forward than we were in 2014.

[Alan]

SNP care more about power than helping "others". They appeal to the middle class and ignore the disadvantaged but use them to their advantage. No economic plan for independence or costs of setting up a state. Nothing radical but just "don't rock the boat". Blind faith over numbers. Nationalism makes people follow, kills debate and a general malaise takes over. Landslide this year but no real action for next 5 years.

[scotlad]

 

6 hours ago, Auld_Reekie said:

The SNP's raison d'etre is independence, not a referendum on independence. With a referendum all but guaranteed (when, not if), the SNP need to start thinking about how they're going to win it and they won't win it by being woefully lacking in ambition. Here's me hoping they're going to get a set of balls on currency, but they can't even land a punch on the council tax. So it's kinda hard to see the SNP being any kind of driving force behind the radical policies that are going to be needed if and when we are to win independence. Im really only a member of the SNP as financial/electoral support of independence, but if feels as if my membership fee should go to a party that's going to invest it more wisely. More and more, it seems like the SNP strategy is to stand very still, hope the Tories continue to f*** everything up and wait for that 60% polling support. It's a risky approach that lacks any kind of inspiration, and I for one, am not that excited about the prospect of going into another referendum with the SNP no further forward than we were in 2014.

If there's another independence referendum in the near future I don't think the result will be much different than it was in 2014, except, perhaps, if the UK votes to leave the EU.

The SNP have definitely missed a golden opportunity to really reform local taxation here though. Like Pool Q has already pointed out, it isn't even as if they are under pressure not to frichten the horses; their nearest opponents are f*ck knows how many points behind them in the polls at the moment. If they can't be even a bit radical in the current climate then when will they be?

[Orraloon]

 

6 hours ago, Auld_Reekie said:

The SNP's raison d'etre is independence, not a referendum on independence. With a referendum all but guaranteed (when, not if), the SNP need to start thinking about how they're going to win it and they won't win it by being woefully lacking in ambition. Here's me hoping they're going to get a set of balls on currency, but they can't even land a punch on the council tax. So it's kinda hard to see the SNP being any kind of driving force behind the radical policies that are going to be needed if and when we are to win independence. Im really only a member of the SNP as financial/electoral support of independence, but if feels as if my membership fee should go to a party that's going to invest it more wisely. More and more, it seems like the SNP strategy is to stand very still, hope the Tories continue to f*** everything up and wait for that 60% polling support. It's a risky approach that lacks any kind of inspiration, and I for one, am not that excited about the prospect of going into another referendum with the SNP no further forward than we were in 2014.

It isn't folk like you that they need to convince though. You have already decided that you want an independent Scotland. You could change your mind but they are hoping that you wont.

[Orraloon]

8 minutes ago, scotlad said:

If there's another independence referendum in the near future I don't think the result will be much different than it was in 2014, except, perhaps, if the UK votes to leave the EU.

The SNP have definitely missed a golden opportunity to really reform local taxation here though. Like Pool Q has already pointed out, it isn't even as if they are under pressure not to frichten the horses; their nearest opponents are f*ck knows how many points behind them in the polls at the moment. If they can't be even a bit radical in the current climate then when will they be?

Being away ahead in the polls doesn't necessarily translate to another outright majority. Some folk seem to think that the SNP have already won the election. They haven't. If they do it again it will be an amazing achievement. Don't forget that for every constituency seat the SNP gain, they will probably lose one of their regional list seats. It will be closer than a lot of folk think.

 

[Auld_Reekie]

41 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It isn't folk like you that they need to convince though. You have already decided that you want an independent Scotland. You could change your mind but they are hoping that you wont.

A fair point. However, Im not sure how you convince those that voted No last time to vote Yes by showing a complete lack of ambition. It also leaves the door open to a Scottish Labour who, surely, will one day appoint a competent leader and/or get so desperate they ditch UK Labour and do whatever the f*** they want. If Labour or the Liberal Democrats had any sense at all, they'd stick LVT or some equivalent reform in their manifesto and throw the dice. And that's just one policy. Sooner or later, someone is going to take advantage of the SNP's complete lack of ambition and it won't take much for the SNP dominance to all but disappear - they may have a healthy lead, but it's not that big a drop before the electoral system wildly balances out seats.

I kinda understand their motivation but if they cannot take on the council tax now, they never will. Extrapolate that stance onto every other policy area and it's clear we're gripped with paralysis until independence comes around or the SNP fade out of power. It's not exactly inspirational leadership.

[Orraloon]

18 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

A fair point. However, Im not sure how you convince those that voted No last time to vote Yes by showing a complete lack of ambition. It also leaves the door open to a Scottish Labour who, surely, will one day appoint a competent leader and/or get so desperate they ditch UK Labour and do whatever the f*** they want. If Labour or the Liberal Democrats had any sense at all, they'd stick LVT or some equivalent reform in their manifesto and throw the dice. And that's just one policy. Sooner or later, someone is going to take advantage of the SNP's complete lack of ambition and it won't take much for the SNP dominance to all but disappear - they may have a healthy lead, but it's not that big a drop before the electoral system wildly balances out seats.

I kinda understand their motivation but if they cannot take on the council tax now, they never will. Extrapolate that stance onto every other policy area and it's clear we're gripped with paralysis until independence comes around or the SNP fade out of power. It's not exactly inspirational leadership.

I don't think council tax is as big an issue as Labour and the media would like us to think. Don't forget council tax accounts for less than 15% of of councils budgets.

As long as it isn't increased by an extortionate amount, it isn't a big issue for most voters.

 

[MacWalka]

1 minute ago, Orraloon said:

I don't think council tax is as big an issue as Labour and the media would like us to think. Don't forget council tax accounts for less than 15% of of councils budgets.

As long as it isn't increased by an extortionate amount, it isn't a big issue for most voters.

 

It might not be a big issue to voters but it's just an example of the complete and utter lack of ambition that the SNP are showing right now. They talk a good game but I seriously struggle to think of anything of note that they've done in this term aside from the referendum. It's depressing compared to the previous term.

[aaid]

11 minutes ago, Auld_Reekie said:

A fair point. However, Im not sure how you convince those that voted No last time to vote Yes by showing a complete lack of ambition. It also leaves the door open to a Scottish Labour who, surely, will one day appoint a competent leader and/or get so desperate they ditch UK Labour and do whatever the f*** they want. If Labour or the Liberal Democrats had any sense at all, they'd stick LVT or some equivalent reform in their manifesto and throw the dice. And that's just one policy. Sooner or later, someone is going to take advantage of the SNP's complete lack of ambition and it won't take much for the SNP dominance to all but disappear - they may have a healthy lead, but it's not that big a drop before the electoral system wildly balances out seats.

I kinda understand their motivation but if they cannot take on the council tax now, they never will. Extrapolate that stance onto every other policy area and it's clear we're gripped with paralysis until independence comes around or the SNP fade out of power. It's not exactly inspirational leadership.

People voted no for lots of different reasons.  There will be fundamental unionists that are unlikely to change their minds.  I'd say this is the 23% according to that last social attitude survey that identified as "British".   They aren't likely to change their minds any time soon.   The remainder are those that voted no for a variety of reasons but I'd suggest there were a couple of reasons.  Firstly, how it was going to impact them in the pocket directly and secondly a basic fear of change and not being convinced by the economic arguments that were being put forwards.  This is the group that needs to be convinced to change their minds.

I'd suggest that this group aren't looking for a radical agenda from the SNP, what they probably want is just good competent government, possibly slightly more progressive than the Westminster government but nothing overly radical - by their nature these are cautious people.

I'd say that 90% of people looking for something radical are already on the Yes side.

The SNP needs to strike a very fine balance between keeping its core support onside and also shifting, step by step, more people over to the Yes side.

As has been said above.  The Holyrood system is very different from Westminster and even if this current lead in the polls proves correct on election day it doesn't fall that they will have a massive majority.

[antidote]

4 hours ago, Alan said:

SNP care more about power than helping "others". They appeal to the middle class and ignore the disadvantaged but use them to their advantage. No economic plan for independence or costs of setting up a state. Nothing radical but just "don't rock the boat". Blind faith over numbers. Nationalism makes people follow, kills debate and a general malaise takes over. Landslide this year but no real action for next 5 years.

I take it that is your opinion?

I'll roughly translate the rest as; Bugger! Those nasty nats didn't tax the poor and working class as I would have liked them to do, so a lot of people won't vote for them.

Unionist nationalism can also kill debate as well as threaten ordinary members of the public who disagree with their bigoted...sorry stringent views.

Edited March 7, 2016 by antidote

[Orraloon]

When all the SNPs opponents are trying to goad them into increasing taxes, there is probably some very good reasons why they shouldn't.