Support for Union "Soars"

[deecie]

3 minutes ago, Scunnered said:

What's the difference?

The cult like unquestioning followers.

[PapofGlencoe]

18 minutes ago, aaid said:

No its not.   Its 39% Independence, 49% Devolution, 6% full rule from Westminster, 6% Don't Know.

You can't extrapolate those figures into a comparable Yes/No ratio as that's not the question that was asked.

The person is asked Scotland outside UK isn't it?  That's independence.  And 39% put a cross in that box.  another 55% put a box next to an answer with "Scotland in UK".  It's not the binary choice of that given in the referendum but it's actually more revealing than that.  It shows that if there was a real middle option a majority are going down that route rather than independence when given the choice.

[ParisInAKilt]

23 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

The person is asked Scotland outside UK isn't it?  That's independence.  And 39% put a cross in that box.  another 55% put a box next to an answer with "Scotland in UK".  It's not the binary choice of that given in the referendum but it's actually more revealing than that.  It shows that if there was a real middle option a majority are going down that route rather than independence when given the choice.

That particular poll actually showed that support for independence had grown compared with previous polls. Obviously the media will not reflect that. 

[PapofGlencoe]

17 hours ago, deecie said:

Because of where I live in the UK I'll be paying higher taxes. Completely unacceptable to me.

The justification is that the UK is not, and has never been, a unitary state but one made up of different layers of devolution from secretary of state to a democratic system which was ratified by the popular vote in 1999.

The people of Scotland weren't too far away from going for full blown independence recently and all political parties recognised that there was a clear majority for more powers for Scotland which includes tax powers.

The justification lies in democracy and choices made.  Even the tories support it.  You're more than welcome to find a party which supports your viewpoint but I'm not sure what party it would be.. 

[deecie]

1 hour ago, PapofGlencoe said:

The justification is that the UK is not, and has never been, a unitary state but one made up of different layers of devolution from secretary of state to a democratic system which was ratified by the popular vote in 1999.

The people of Scotland weren't too far away from going for full blown independence recently and all political parties recognised that there was a clear majority for more powers for Scotland which includes tax powers.

The justification lies in democracy and choices made.  Even the tories support it.  You're more than welcome to find a party which supports your viewpoint but I'm not sure what party it would be.. 

It's a Tory policy to move from £42-45k.

Its just another piece of poor governance coming out of Holyrood pushing me further from having a prosperous future in Scotland.

 

[AlfieMoon]

53 minutes ago, deecie said:

It's a Tory policy to move from £42-45k.

Its just another piece of poor governance coming out of Holyrood pushing me further from having a prosperous future in Scotland.

 

 

Or is it not poor governance from the UK Government? 

I've read through the bickering on the thread around this threshold and personally I don't have a massive issue with what's being proposed by the SNP, Labour and Lib Dems around the 40% rate*. That's why we have a mixture of parties with differing policies and the Tories will cater for those wanting to match those particular proposals of George Osborne. 

The wider issue - and where I think your main gripe should lie if you are annoyed at this happening in the context of Scotland being part of the UK (i.e. same country as England) - is that the Calman Commission (2009) brought about the Scotland Act (2012) to transfer some Income Tax powers (from 2016). You could say that this came about on the back of a pro-independence (SNP) government coming to power as Westminster offered more power to try and reduce the threat of independence. They then took that a step even further in the Indyref campaign by offering even more powers (devo max) which the lumped in to being the same as a No vote at the last minute when they got panicky. 

 

The first part of the above (Calman) our electorate wasn't asked about as a change to the original devolution agreement. The second part of what happened during the Indyref campaign would further bring in to question just how democratic this transfer of powers was when it is clear to see that the electorate were not being asked the right questions in the context of the referendum offering that developed courtesy of the UK Gov.

 

*Edit: Just to add that SNP have just stated a increase of 40% threshold in line with CPI inflation rate. Addressing things from a living costs perspective but not providing a sizable tax cut at multiples of the rate of inflation as per in England.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by AlfieMoon

[Pool Q]

Under the SNP policy the higher rate band starting point, increased in line with CPI, will increase to £43,387, rather than a starting rate of £45,000 in the rest of the UK. That means someone in Scotland earning £45k (or more) will be paying c.£6.20pw more in tax than their counterpart elsewhere. Whether or not you agree with this, it is surely an inevitable consequence of the introduction of tax raising powers in a devolved Scotland that there will be some divergence in tax rates between the constituent parts of the U.K. Something like this is at the margins, and like the Council Tax changes, it will affect a relatively small number of people - including me in both cases as it happens. In the political context in which the SNP operate it isn't surprising that they are looking at this kind of thing rather than an increase in the basic rate of tax which the rest of the mainstream parties either favour, or at least pretend to favour. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by Pool Q

[thplinth]

Putting aside the hilarious attempts to equate opposition to this as directly taking a prescription off a sick person I find this sudden expression of the tax on a weekly basis equally amusing. Why not make it daily! It will look even smaller then!

Here is another thought if you and your spouse were high rate tax payers during your working lives and say you pay higher rate tax for 40 years then you will be (all other things being equal) 24,000 quid less well off than your english neighbour or 48,000 for you and your spouse when you stop working. 50 grand near enough less for you to enjoy your retirement and or leave to your kids than Joe England & Family...

But this is just the beginning the Tories will be looking for every chance they can to force the SNP to deviate again and again and have higher taxes than down south... Look how easy it was to produce this one.

And I see the papers are now saying tax cuts in England could result in budget cuts to Scotland irrespective of what we do so we would be forced to keep raising taxes locally to offset more cuts from Westminster.

It is a total trap but appeals to those folk who decide policy on short term political goals and sound bites.

You have to be in awe at the sheer putridness of Tory policies but... cutting benefits to the disabled while cutting taxes to the 'rich'. Wow. Amazing. I am sure Alan will be along to explain why he supports this.... must be a coincidence he is suddenly absent from these discussions post Osborne's hideous and disgusting budget.

 

[dipped flake]

4 hours ago, deecie said:

The cult like unquestioning followers.

you know you have lost the argument when you have to resort to stock snp-bad phrases. I have no wish for the Scottish Government to pass on a tax cut to the well off so I totally agree with their stance on this. Thankfully it appears that the vast majority of the Scottish population doesn't agree with tory polices either

[PapofGlencoe]

2 hours ago, deecie said:

It's a Tory policy to move from £42-45k.

Its just another piece of poor governance coming out of Holyrood pushing me further from having a prosperous future in Scotland.

 

Apologies I understood your issue was parts of the UK having different tax powers at all rather than this specific policy. 

All parties support the ability to change tax in Scotland different from other parts of the UK.  Scotland having power to be different in the UK is not new.  And I don't know any party that supports that not being the case.  Nor actually does the evidence suggest many Scots feel that way either...  Social attitudes survey suggesting what 4%? 

[deecie]

4 hours ago, dipped flake said:

you know you have lost the argument when you have to resort to stock snp-bad phrases. I have no wish for the Scottish Government to pass on a tax cut to the well off so I totally agree with their stance on this. Thankfully it appears that the vast majority of the Scottish population doesn't agree with tory polices either

No argument from me. The SNP have decided on a policy that will make my life worse, therefore I won't be voting for them.

£42k may have been 'well off' 20 years ago, but it's something unspectacular today. 

4 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Apologies I understood your issue was parts of the UK having different tax powers at all rather than this specific policy. 

All parties support the ability to change tax in Scotland different from other parts of the UK.  Scotland having power to be different in the UK is not new.  And I don't know any party that supports that not being the case.  Nor actually does the evidence suggest many Scots feel that way either...  Social attitudes survey suggesting what 4%? 

I've not checked tbh. Different levels of income tax in different parts of the U.K. will just be a mess.

Will my level of income tax depend on my address, my work address, where I'm physically working? It's not exactly difficult to change any of these to minimise your liabilities (which I will do).

[Clyde1998]

10 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

The person is asked Scotland outside UK isn't it?  That's independence.  And 39% put a cross in that box.  another 55% put a box next to an answer with "Scotland in UK".  It's not the binary choice of that given in the referendum but it's actually more revealing than that.  It shows that if there was a real middle option a majority are going down that route rather than independence when given the choice.

Yes. I think the biggest issue is that the option of "Devolution" is a bit vague now. For example, Devo Max would fit under that, as well as the current situation. I think that a sizeable percentage of people who went Devolution would vote for Independence if they believed substantial more powers weren't forthcoming - as happened in the referendum. IIRC, there's usually a question on whether Scotland should have more powers - (if I'm correct) it will be interesting to see the results of that question.

[ErsatzThistle]

Anyone here know any unionist fruit loops that want full direct rule from London to be restored and the Scottish Parliament abolished ?

[antidote]

1 hour ago, deecie said:

No argument from me. The SNP have decided on a policy that will make my life worse, therefore I won't be voting for them.

But your life won't be worse as your tax situation stays the same as before.

Why don't you just come and say it, that you'd never vote SNP no matter what.

 

[deecie]

17 minutes ago, antidote said:

But your life won't be worse as your tax situation stays the same as before.

Why don't you just come and say it, that you'd never vote SNP no matter what.

 

Voted SNP last May.

Not that it matters.

 

[Clyde1998]

1 hour ago, deecie said:

Different levels of income tax in different parts of the U.K. will just be a mess.

The UK is pretty much the only large country in Europe (and probably the developed world) where different parts of the country don't have powers to have differences in income tax - I don't think any other country thinks it's a "mess".

[deecie]

17 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said:

The UK is pretty much the only large country in Europe (and probably the developed world) where different parts of the country don't have powers to have differences in income tax - I don't think any other country thinks it's a "mess".

Are you sure about that? Neither France not Germany seem to have varied income tax throughout the country.

Happy to be corrected.

[Clyde1998]

4 minutes ago, deecie said:

Are you sure about that? Neither France not Germany seem to have varied income tax throughout the country.

Happy to be corrected.

Looking at those two - you appear to be correct. I always thought that their regions/states had control over this, although I think their states have much more control over spending than Scotland (which is probably why I thought they had control over income tax, particularly Germany).

I know that Spanish regions collect around 50% of all taxes (compared to about 14% for Scotland) and Canada and the USA has decentralised income tax (with the Federal Government still collecting a certain percentage). I'm not sure about Italy though.

[Toepoke]

58 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Anyone here know any unionist fruit loops that want full direct rule from London to be restored and the Scottish Parliament abolished ?

Yep.

[stocky]

1 hour ago, Clyde1998 said:

The UK is pretty much the only large country in Europe (and probably the developed world) where different parts of the country don't have powers to have differences in income tax - I don't think any other country thinks it's a "mess".

the UK isnt a country..  its a Political Union.  

I am sure the lander in Germany have differing taxes. 

 

[caledonian1]

10 hours ago, deecie said:

No argument from me. The SNP have decided on a policy that will make my life worse, therefore I won't be voting for them.

£42k may have been 'well off' 20 years ago, but it's something unspectacular today. 

I've not checked tbh. Different levels of income tax in different parts of the U.K. will just be a mess.

Will my level of income tax depend on my address, my work address, where I'm physically working? It's not exactly difficult to change any of these to minimise your liabilities (which I will do).

I am sure it is by address. So if you find it so easy to change that for tax purposes, say to an English address - so that you can "enjoy" English tax rates, you will have achieved your aim of not voting for the SNP - your address is in England and you will no longer be entitled to vote in a Scottish constituency.

Incredible the lengths people will go to for the sake of a few pounds a month....whilst at the same time contributing little to the schools, hospitals and services in their locality.

The SNP are strong favourites to be voted in again and carry out this policy of increasing the 40% tax threshold to something in line with inflation rather than Osbornes tax cut for the well off.  Have you already made moves to alter your registered address?  Perhaps you are moving to England or Wales or are you looking to evade tax to a greater extent and utilise an address overseas?

[deecie]

1 hour ago, caledonian1 said:

Osbornes tax cut for the well off.

This part is utter pish.

Luckily living in Aberdeen is still that unaffordable that I recon i could change my registered address very easily.

[Toepoke]

12 hours ago, deecie said:

 

£42k may have been 'well off' 20 years ago, but it's something unspectacular today.

Spectacular or not it still puts you in the top 15% of earners in Scotland.

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Toepoke

[thplinth]

Every economic action has an economic reaction. I would guess that for some people currently living in Scotland and paying taxes there it would be relatively easy to relocate and pay their taxes in England. A certain percentage of them will likely do that and in increasing numbers as the tax burden in Scotland widens versus England. When they go they take all their tax revenues with them. Not just the 600 quid difference we are arguing about here. By definition they are high rate tax payers and so by definition are paying a lot of tax.When they go you lose a lot of tax (over a 600 quid quibble) . So how many of them would it take to pish off to negate the extra tax we get by keeping the threshold at 45k? Then you get the folk that dont come here who would have - no way of knowing what that amounts to. Maybe more will come because we have higher taxes than England but I doubt it.

Edited March 23, 2016 by thplinth

[Toepoke]

51 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

Spectacular or not it still puts you in the top 15% of earners in Scotland.

 

59 minutes ago, deecie said:

Luckily living in Aberdeen is still that unaffordable that I recon i could change my registered address very easily.

 

I do have sympathy with the younger generation suffering as a result of the last 15 years of housing market madness.

I may not earn enough to be worried about the 40% tax band but way less than 10% of my take home pay goes on the mortgage.