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45 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

To think if they'd just kept the perpetrators in the clink there might not have been an Irish Republic at all...

 

Independence would have taken longer, but it still would have happened i think.

Arguably the easter rising and ensuing war ensured Ireland would be partitioned. Had independence been achieved democratically it would have been as 32 counties. Mibbie. We'll never know.

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55 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

Independence would have taken longer, but it still would have happened i think.

Arguably the easter rising and ensuing war ensured Ireland would be partitioned. Had independence been achieved democratically it would have been as 32 counties. Mibbie. We'll never know.

Interesting that almost 100 years on political lines in the Republic of Ireland is still drawn along post rising and civil war lines with the four main parties owing their existence to the various factions that arose. 

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It's one of those historical what ifs.

Following on from the "Scotland: The Promised Land" thread I've sometimes pondered if shots had been fired in George Square and not O'Connell Street, would there now be a Republic of Scotland instead?...

 

Edited by Toepoke
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A wonderful day of rejoicing for the people of Ireland. Erin go Bragh :)

Long live the memory of those men and women of Easter week 1916. Heroes all. :ok:

Sadly I fear this thread will bring out a few BritNats and the "don't question my beloved British Army you scum" types.

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24 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

A wonderful day of rejoicing for the people of Ireland. Erin go Bragh :)

Long live the memory of those men and women of Easter week 1916. Heroes all. :ok:

Sadly I fear this thread will bring out a few BritNats and the "don't question my beloved British Army you scum" types.

This is the tamb not follow follow so you would think there wouldn't be many like that on here.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

A wonderful day of rejoicing for the people of Ireland. Erin go Bragh :)

Long live the memory of those men and women of Easter week 1916. Heroes all. :ok:

Sadly I fear this thread will bring out a few BritNats and the "don't question my beloved British Army you scum" types.

Ooft. Wee fuse lighter in the last paragraph. 6 pager?

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3 hours ago, aaid said:

Interesting that almost 100 years on political lines in the Republic of Ireland is still drawn along post rising and civil war lines with the four main parties owing their existence to the various factions that arose. 

Aye, and they're currently refusing to go into coalition together after the election of a few weeks ago, despite it being the most obvious solution to the hung parliament.

They know if they do this their cushy centre-right consensus that has ruled Ireland since independence will be broken. The illusion of choice will be shattered. They are two cheeks of the same civil war arse.

 

Edit: I'm referring to Fine Gael and Fianna Fail of course

3 hours ago, Toepoke said:

It's one of those historical what ifs.

Following on from the "Scotland: The Promised Land" thread I've sometimes pondered if shots had been fired in George Square and not O'Connell Street, would there now be a Republic of Scotland instead?...

 

Unlikely i'd say, as the leaders probably wouldn't have been executed like the Irish were. Ireland was under martial law at the time. It was the army that was in charge and they took the decision to execute the rebels, thereby 'losing' Ireland.

2 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

 

Long live the memory of those men and women of Easter week 1916. Heroes all. :ok:

 

There was an interesting debate on RTE earlier this week about whether the rising was justified or not. The 'no' side were making the point that the rebels were extremists with a deathwish (Pearse talked about a 'blood sacrifice') who had no popular support. If you can retrospectively justify the rising, wouldn't the same logic also justify the actions of the PIRA, Real IRA etc?

Edited by Dave78
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20 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

There was an interesting debate on RTE earlier this week about whether the rising was justified or not. The 'no' side were making the point that the rebels were extremists with a deathwish (Pearse talked about a 'blood sacrifice') who had no popular support. If you can retrospectively justify the rising, wouldn't the same logic also justify the actions of the PIRA, Real IRA etc?

What I would say to that is that 1916 and The Troubles were very different times and very different circumstances.

It's a very popular trick used today by conservative, pro-British journalists and historians today to denigrate the men and women of Easter week - just add in the IRA, PIRA, INLA, everything Troubles related basically - to muddy the waters and completely ignore the context of the time. 

Incidently, when the GPO was taken, several British officers were taken prisoner and later testified that they had been treated very well by the patriots. 

In comparison with the South African government's swift common sense and conciliatory handling of a more serious, widespread rebellion that broke out there in 1914, the conduct of the British government and it's military was excessive and brutal.

It is also worth remembering that those behind the modern movement for Scottish and Welsh independence - John MacLean, Hugh MacDiarmid, Saunders Lewis, Ruaraidh Erskine, William Gillies, H. R. Jones, Roland Muirhead and Lewis Valentine all spoke or wrote of their admiration for the men and women of Easter week.

I hope you are enjoying the celebrations :ok:

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22 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:
22 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

 

What I would say to that is that 1916 and The Troubles were very different times and very different circumstances.

It's a very popular trick used today by conservative, pro-British journalists and historians today to denigrate the men and women of Easter week - just add in the IRA, PIRA, INLA, everything Troubles related basically - to muddy the waters and completely ignore the context of the time. 

Incidently, when the GPO was taken, several British officers were taken prisoner and later testified that they had been treated very well by the patriots. 

In comparison with the South African government's swift common sense and conciliatory handling of a more serious, widespread rebellion that broke out there in 1914, the conduct of the British government and it's military was excessive and brutal.

It is also worth remembering that those behind the modern movement for Scottish and Welsh independence - John MacLean, Hugh MacDiarmid, Saunders Lewis, Ruaraidh Erskine, William Gillies, H. R. Jones, Roland Muirhead and Lewis Valentine all spoke or wrote of their admiration for the men and women of Easter week.

I hope you are enjoying the celebrations :ok:

 

Are they pro-British journalists, or just anti-violence? I searched for it on youtube to post it but couldn't find it. Was an interesting discussion, and made me think at least.

Regarding your point about the historical context of the time, i assume you're referring to WW1? I can see how that would encourage it, but i'm not sure how that justifies the extremist logic tbh.

Edited by Dave78
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Ironically, having said what i've said here, i can't let this fred pass without posting this song...

All the hairs on the back of my neck standing in salute just now...
 

 

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Watched  a few bits on RTE and read a few pieces about the Rising. A discussion panel with 3 pro / 3 against Irish historians discussing the Rising and the what ifs/may/next/buts of it all - very fascinating.

A great nation no doubt at all. Whist Irish pals continued to tell me pre-referendum that it wasn't all milk and honey, and to seriously think before voting, they at least could control their own destiny.

Definitely will be wishing them well and cheering them on the summer at the Euros.

 

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23 hours ago, Dave78 said:

Ironically, having said what i've said here, i can't let this fred pass without posting this song...

All the hairs on the back of my neck standing in salute just now...
 

 

Good man, Dave.

Great song, video, and hope you are well.

 

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Great country, great people who have a fantastic outlook on life. I have been to ROI on many occasions for family reasons and holidays. The Republic has come to terms with self determination in Northern Ireland and that evidence of a modern democracy. There is a long way to go though in terms of independence from from influence of the religious  doctrine(same in the north) and how this impacts on women's right to choose what to do with their own bodies.

Irish History is fascinating. Full on contradictions and double dealing. Its is probably convenient to unite behind blaming a common denominator(Britain). Saves them from looking inwards.

Edited by EddardStark
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The normal person on the street doesn't care about the centenary, its just an Easter holiday, in fact the news showed disappointed "Irish" Northern Irish tourists that thought there would be a celebration and there was nothing on.

Most people wouldn't find children being shot in the streets by both sides as worth celebrating.  There was no clear cut right and wrong and extreme behavior all over including riots and robbing by the winners.  The Irish grand national was on yesterday and they said there is a legend they even shot the 1916 winner because the trainer was for the Nos  (but they may have just robbed him and threatened his horse as he tried to get home).

Funny how bits of NI and Scotland are more excited by it depending on how you were brought up. 

 

Religon ye cannae whack it

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Been following the event from afar. Looks like Ireland have dealt with it in a respectful and intelligent manner especially with the debates for and against the success of the events, problems since then and the positives and negatives of modern day.

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21 hours ago, thistle do nicely said:

Funny how bits of NI and Scotland are more excited by it depending on how you were brought up. 

Religon ye cannae whack it

I guess it's a case of moving away from somewhere making you more patriotic.

I read a comment yesterday saying that only around 25% of Catholics in Northern Ireland would be in favour of a united Ireland.

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