phart Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 13 hours ago, Toepoke said: You may be right although I fear humans would find some other excuse to kill each other. Exactly religion is a symptom not the disease. It's certainty that's the problem, if you're full of doubt you're hardly likely to kill someone for perceived crimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 59 minutes ago, phart said: First things first, can we get a list of the "classic muslim apologist lines" otherwise they just look like an ad hoc rhetorical tool used to dismiss a statement without actually addressing the content. Just so we can see they actually exist and aren't just made up on the spot. Islam is a religion of peace The Bible is more bloodthirsty than the Quran We have to put ourselves in the eyes of the terrorists to understand them Look at what the Christians did during the Crusades 99.9% of Muslims are peaceful and do not take part in terrorist activities (overlooking the percentage of Muslims who may not take part but agree that it can be justified) Western Foreign Policy has created Islamic Extremism Reza Aslan is a noted liar by the way http://counterjihadreport.com/tag/reza-aslan/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Not sure if he's a liar or not, I'd definitely take anything written in a website named counter jihad with a pinch of salt, however, he does appear to make a valid point in the video I posted. Western foreign policy might not have created Islamic extremism but it's doing its best to keep it going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 It's interesting that most on here would agree that the government use forms of propaganda to control and coerce the population. But let's just accept what they are telling us about Isis and the next boogymen who hate our "freedom" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Rather than post videos that claim he's a liar, tell me what he said in the video I posted that you don't agree with and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 19 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: Rather than post videos that claim he's a liar, tell me what he said in the video I posted that you don't agree with and go from there. The reason i posted the video (Reza Aslan's lies and media bias) was because it covered that very interview in the video you posted and the lies he told therein It is covered at depth in this video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 56 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: 1.Islam is a religion of peace 2.The Bible is more bloodthirsty than the Quran 3.We have to put ourselves in the eyes of the terrorists to understand them 4.Look at what the Christians did during the Crusades 5.99.9% of Muslims are peaceful and do not take part in terrorist activities (overlooking the percentage of Muslims who may not take part but agree that it can be justified) 6.Western Foreign Policy has created Islamic Extremism 1. Yeah this is nonsense, no religion is the religion of peace, just as no colour is the colour of peace. Or sound etc. 2. How does one define bloodthirstiness? What does this even mean? 3. To understand someone you must be able to think the same thoughts as them. You must know their contexts etc. Not really sure what this point is saying. 4. I'm extremely familiar with the First Crusade my favourite book is based on the skeleton of it. Not sure how this becomes a Muslim apologist line. 5. Look at history, our species is not a peaceful one. So any claims about being peaceful are normally self serving and wrong. 6. Most extremism is a product of Wahhabi Islam , which is a product of the Saudi's who are our allies and business partners in the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 - Agreed 2 - Exactly - its whataboutery 3 - Our behaviours and way we live our lives are an offence to their religion 4 - Again - whataboutery 5 - Agreed 6 - Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 6 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: 3 - Our behaviours and way we live our lives are an offence to their religion So we should bomb their cities? Actively undermine their governments, arm their opponents. Overthrow governments. We're at war we kill "them" they kill "us". You think if ISIS had total air coverage they'd still use mentally ill people or children to walk into places and bomb them. You're dealing with absolute certainty, fanaticism. Islam is one of the beacons of it, so was the Imperial family of Japan. Hell so was the cause of good old blighty, many a final note sent to parents in he world wars as commando missions and suicide attacks happened. Then you have Israel stirring everything up in the region as well. Read Oded Yinon's Plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, phart said: So we should bomb their cities? Actively undermine their governments, arm their opponents. Overthrow governments. Not at all. There is no doubt that Western foreign policy is a fantastic recruiting agent for Islamic extremism but also accept that there is a very difficult line between the consequences of doing something and doing nothing. I believe the point being made to "put ourselves in the eyes of the terrorist" is to accept and understand that the decadent lives of Western Society are an insult to their faith ergo their actions are somewhat justified on some levels Edited March 28, 2016 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YORKIE PAM Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 18 hours ago, tartandon said: All religion is a complete nonsense and anybody who has it as their main motivation in life needs their head examined. Person A wishes people a happy easter, when most people actually see it nowadays as a celebration of fluffy rabbits and chocolate. Person B is upset because a minority of people believe in some fairy tale about a beardy magician doing a david copperfield trick. Person B decides to stab person A due to his mentioning of something that could potentially be a reference to aforementioned fairytale about magic trick. Absolute lunacy The world would be a lot better place if there were nae religions. This. It does seem that a lot more are turning against religion as if you actually think about it there's no sense in any of it. Unfortunately Muslims are not allowed to think like that as the consequences would be too dire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 6 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Not at all. There is no doubt that Western foreign policy is a fantastic recruiting agent for Islamic extremism but also accept that there is a very difficult line between the consequences of doing something and doing nothing. I believe the point being made to "put ourselves in the eyes of the terrorist" is to accept and understand that the decadent lives of Western Society are an insult to their faith ergo their actions are somewhat justified on some levels What do you mean regarding the consequences of doing something and doing nothing? The 2003 Invasion of Iraq? Really you're ascribing our "decadent" lifestyle as the catalyst for their actions? Is there any independent survey of this? It's not watching things like this? It's the "decadence" that really grates not the 500,000 deaths of children? I can just about stomach the millions of deaths, the overthrows, the arming of extremists, supplying transport to foreign mercenaries, the assassinations of political leaders,permanent occupying forces in country, random extra-judicial executions, the Drone strikes with a 90% civilian casualty rate, however, seeing them wearing bikini's and watching MTV is what really got my goat. What a weird carictature of a human that is being painted, i don't recognize any humanity in that description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, phart said: What do you mean regarding the consequences of doing something and doing nothing? The 2003 Invasion of Iraq? Really you're ascribing our "decadent" lifestyle as the catalyst for their actions? Is there any independent survey of this? It's not watching things like this? It's the "decadence" that really grates not the 500,000 deaths of children? You asked for a list of muslim apologist lines So i gave you some of them. The one about seeing ourselves in the eyes of the terrorist was trumped out by an NBC "terrorism expert" On Wednesday’s edition of The Cycle on MSNBC, NBC News terrorism expert Evan Kohlmann was at it again, telling the hosts that we, as Americans, must “put ourselves in the eyes” of Islamic terrorists considering “there wouldn’t be violent attacks but there would be an uproar” and “anger” among Christians if Muslims burned crosses or trampled “Christian artifacts.” After giving his thoughts on freedom of speech and the broader freedom of expression, Kohlmann launched into explaining how we must come to understand those who commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam: “We have to put ourselves in the eyes of our adversaries sometimes and we have to understand that reacting violently, burning Korans, getting very worked up about this, it doesn’t necessarily help our agenda.” Seeking to further impose his hubris upon viewers, he added: “If our agenda is to promote peace and reconciliation and understanding, you know, saying bad things about Islam is not going to solve that problem.” Kohlmann’s attempt at creating another moral equivalency between Western civilization and ruthless Islamic terrorists came for the second time in a week, as he blasted the French National Front party on Friday, declaring that they are “as much of the problem as jihadists are” for France going forward. Back in August, he blamed the news that the Islamic terror group ISIS was waterboarding its captives on “the behavior that they’ve seen meted out to prisoners at Abu Ghraib, at Guantanamo to their own captives.” I guess the consequences of doing something rather than nothing revolves around where you stand on the possibility of some of these religious extremist nutters in the middle east obtaining nuclear weapons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, Ally Bongo said: I guess the consequences of doing something rather than nothing revolves around where you stand on the possibility of some of these religious extremist nutters in the middle east obtaining nuclear weapons You seem to be very certain about who and what is the cause of all the terrorism, but what do to you suggest we do about it? About 20 or 30 Muslims live within a few hundred meters of my house. Should I start killing them before they kill me? That seemed to be a good idea in Bosnia 20 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 you said " I believe the point being made to "put ourselves in the eyes of the terrorist" is to accept and understand that the decadent lives of Western Society are an insult to their faith ergo their actions are somewhat justified on some levels " i.e. it's your belief! I'm just saying it is ludicrous to believe that decadence in the west is the primary motivator as opposed to everything else. How inhuman it would be to hate folk for decadence while nbot hating them for killing,political meddling, drone attacks etc. It is irrelevant who said it, it just doesn't have any evidence i can find. Well Mordechai Vanunu already let us know about religious extremists potentially having nukes in the region. Assad got rid of his WMD's just recently. Still buying the Nuclear threat line? I didn't buy it in 2003 as a youngster so a bit surprised 13 years later folk still buy it. Which country? Iraq? We invaded and found feck all. Here's Netanyahu being wrong about Iraq in 2002. http://www.juancole.com/2012/09/netanyahu-2002-iraq-has-centrifuges-the-size-of-washing-machines-to-produce-a-bomb.html All Nonsense of course no centrifuges found, no material, not even Anthrax, or meetings with Mohammed Atta in Prague. Other potential countries would be Syria, except they just destroyed all their WMD's So it must be Iran, weirdly Netanyahu is the one saying it again. I wonder if he is telling the truth this time, let's look at leaked cables and see? http://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1424713149380/Mossad-On-Iran-Nuclear-Stat.pdf Oh look he was talking shit again. the problem is it's easy to lie to idiots and the uniformed. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Phart - when anyone refers to Muslim apologists they are not talking about Muslim's defending terrorism Muslim apologists deny that ideology in the Quran/Hadith gives rise to terrorism There is no reference intended to primary motivators Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Phart - when anyone refers to Muslim apologists they are not talking about Muslim's defending terrorism Muslim apologists deny that ideology in the Quran/Hadith gives rise to terrorism What sorts of terrorism did it give rise to from 600AD to 1914AD? There will be thousands of examples i assume. Edited March 28, 2016 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 8 minutes ago, phart said: What sorts of terrorism did it give rise to from 600AD to 1914AD? There will be thousands of examples i assume. Millions - if we are talking about deaths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Millions - if we are talking about deaths we're talking terrorism in the context of " that ideology in the Quran/Hadith gives rise to terrorism " I asked what sort of terrorism did it give rise to in earlier times. Millions isn't a type of terrorism. This is an excellent academic study on the issue. http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00B4FJB1O/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, phart said: we're talking terrorism in the context of " that ideology in the Quran/Hadith gives rise to terrorism " I asked what sort of terrorism did it give rise to in earlier times. Millions isn't a type of terrorism. This is an excellent academic study on the issue. http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00B4FJB1O/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 Go and look up how many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Non Believers were slaughtered in the Jihadic conquests There are indeed plenty of examples over the last 1400 years that can easily be found on google Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 On 26 March 2016 at 4:23 PM, Ally Bongo said: The nutcase wouldnt have travelled without religious belief - one goes hand in hand with the other I though Shah was a muslim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, Lamia said: I though Shah was a muslim? And ? Muslims are killing other Muslims daily for being the wrong Muslims, or apostates or those that criticise the religion It was pointed out earlier that Shah was an Ahmadi Muslim - regarded by orthodox muslims as heretical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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