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27 minutes ago, thorbotnic said:

The system the SNP replaced it with isn't much better, apparently.

It's pretty much the same, but with a cuddly name.  The company responsible for the Edinburgh schools are also being awarded contracts but under a different name as well now.

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10 minutes ago, Boynze said:

what about the benefit to the kids, teachers etc from learning and working in first class.facilities? The volume of these schools would never have been built with the council paying for them.

These first class facilities that are closed because they're unsafe?

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15 minutes ago, Boynze said:

the fault has nothing to do with the procurement method. The fault could easily have been found in any council built project.

The implication is that a private company might be tempted to cut corners to save money in the way a local authority might not be.  Whether that's the case or not, no doubt will come out in the inevitable inquiry.

That said, the fact that the same faults seem to be in other projects by the same company it does tend to suggest something systemic rather than a rogue brickie. 

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On 12/04/2016 at 4:06 PM, Orraloon said:

He did indeed. Up until 2007 any money that was not spent from the budget in any year went straight back to the treasury. In 2007 the SNP got the rules changed so that unspent money could be carried over from one year to the next.

Glad you mentioned that I was going to ask about the time scale - absolutely shocking.  Really should be billboards in every public place exposing this idiocy from Labour as msm certainly won't.

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18 hours ago, Parklife said:

How many D&B projects have you worked on? 

A few.  Have avoided them for about the last 10 years as the fees to be made as part of the design team don't make it worthwhile and don't come close to covering the cost of the abortive work on all the projects that your group doesn't win.  Never been involved in anything as big as the Edinburgh schools project though.  We don't get involved in any PPP arrangements and never have.  Mostly we get paid directly by clients rather than through a contractor although we do work with some local contractors that we trust where they build our fees into their price and they pay us directly.

The most recent project with which we were involved in a D&B arrangement was for a swimming pool and leisure centre, but we pulled out as it looked like a disater in the making.  The group we were working with didn't get the contract so we avoided even more abortive work by leaving before it got too detailed.  The company that did the building work is now being sued for countless defects which will probably cost more than the original cost of the whole project to fix.  Not sure what the financing arrangement for that one was but I don't think it was PPP - as someone said, it's not actually the financing method that causes faults like omission of wall ties.  It's lack of proper independent supervision on a daily basis, although that appears to be a side effect of the financing method.

Edited by Alibi
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1 hour ago, Alibi said:

A few.  Have avoided them for about the last 10 years as the fees to be made as part of the design team don't make it worthwhile and don't come close to covering the cost of the abortive work on all the projects that your group doesn't win.  Never been involved in anything as big as the Edinburgh schools project though.  We don't get involved in any PPP arrangements and never have.  Mostly we get paid directly by clients rather than through a contractor although we do work with some local contractors that we trust where they build our fees into their price and they pay us directly.

The most recent project with which we were involved in a D&B arrangement was for a swimming pool and leisure centre, but we pulled out as it looked like a disater in the making.  The group we were working with didn't get the contract so we avoided even more abortive work by leaving before it got too detailed.  The company that did the building work is now being sued for countless defects which will probably cost more than the original cost of the whole project to fix.  Not sure what the financing arrangement for that one was but I don't think it was PPP - as someone said, it's not actually the financing method that causes faults like omission of wall ties.  It's lack of proper independent supervision on a daily basis, although that appears to be a side effect of the financing method.

I think by tarring all contractors as desperate to skimp on quality, as you seemed to do in your initial post, you're being grossly unfair. 

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Would leaving out the wall ties actually save much money? They are just wee bits of metal aren't they? I wouldn't have thought they would be very expensive and fairly easy to fit whist the walls are being built. Or, is it just a reflection of using cheap cowboy builders? But you wouldn't think that even brickies working for cowboy builders would deliberately miss out the wall ties, would they? Somebody must have made the decision not to fit them.

Or is it just standard practise to cut corners and hope you don't get caught? I wonder how many more buildings have been built without wall ties.

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It's like when that khunt Richard Chamberlain skimped on the wiring for that skyscraper in San Francisco and look what happened there. Lots of people lost their lives. Paul Newman and Fred Astaire both lost their burds that fateful day.

Edited by Marky
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On 4/14/2016 at 0:02 PM, Parklife said:

I think by tarring all contractors as desperate to skimp on quality, as you seemed to do in your initial post, you're being grossly unfair. 

I don't think that at all though.  I deal with some excellent contractors that I trust and that do the job properly and conscientiously.  However for a multi million pound project to be self-certified sounds like a total abrogation of responsibility by the commissioning authority, and/or an opportunity to go a step too far in increasing profits.  I was told today that the problem in Edinburgh might not be total omission of wall ties but instead it could be the use of poor quality sub-standard items that weren't up to the job.  Maybe best to wait for the report to see exactly what caused this problem, but in the meantime the SG should be considering changing the procurement rules to ensure that either the design team is independent of the contractor or other processes are put in place to ensure that the design meets the performance spec, and also that the performance spec is adequate.  This mess of Labour's is caused principally by putting profit before quality, whatever the manner in which the cost saving was made.  Good design and proper supervision costs money - there are no real short cuts to good quality design or construction.  Follow the money - and maybe see if anyone involved donated money to the Labour Party.

Edited by Alibi
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On 14 April 2016 at 1:07 PM, Marky said:

It's like when that khunt Richard Chamberlain skimped on the wiring for that skyscraper in San Francisco and look what happened there. Lots of people lost their lives. Paul Newman and Fred Astaire both lost their burds that fateful day.

Was it not Robert Wagner's missus that copped it? As did he...

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On 18 April 2016 at 9:18 PM, Toepoke said:

Was it not Robert Wagner's missus that copped it? As did he...

They definitely both copped it, but I thought Faye Dunnaway (Newman's missus) did too.

Could be wrong, it's been a while! ?

 

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13 minutes ago, Marky said:

They definitely both copped it, but I thought Faye Dunnaway (Newman's missus) did too.

Could be wrong, it's been a while! ?

 

Now that I think about it, she might have survived in the scenic elevator that got lifted to the ground by the helicopter?

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