Ally Bongo Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Faisal Islam Verified account @faisalislam Libdems have won. Zac Goldsmith has lost a 23000 majority as Tory Remain voters switched LibDem in sensational by election shock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Faisal Islam Verified account @faisalislam Libdems have won. Zac Goldsmith has lost a 23000 majority as Tory Remain voters switched LibDem in sensational by election shock Timely comeuppance for Zac and Tories. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, or a nicer party Edited December 2, 2016 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 A Cameronesque miscalculation from Zac. Resigned over Heathrow, pumped over Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Boooo the right wing English and the Fib Dems. Who to boo? Who to cheer? A metroploitan diverse (when compared with Scotland) area with high education and salary levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) "Forgive and forget Zac Goldsmith’s racist campaign? No chance" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/07/zac-goldsmith-racist-campaign-london Edited December 2, 2016 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) That was back in May. This today from Owen Jones: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/02/good-riddance-zac-goldsmith-career-over-richmond-park Edited December 2, 2016 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 As a comparison it'll be interesting to see how the Sleaford bi-election goes next week in Lincolnshire Vote Leave country... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 The EU feeling is very much class, income, education based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Q Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 12 hours ago, Alan said: Boooo the right wing English and the Fib Dems. Who to boo? Who to cheer? A metroploitan diverse (when compared with Scotland) area with high education and salary levels. Richmond is about 90% white, and almost entirely affluent middle class. A less diverse place it would be difficult to imagine. Poor there is having a villa in Umbria rather than Tuscany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 52 minutes ago, Alan said: The EU feeling is very much class, income, education based. Michael Rosen @MichaelRosenYes Germany has the highest immigrant population in the EU and yet has seen real term wages grow by 14.9%. The UK saw ours fall by 10.4%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cove_Sheep Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Just now, Ally Bongo said: Michael Rosen @MichaelRosenYes Germany has the highest immigrant population in the EU and yet has seen real term wages grow by 14.9%. The UK saw ours fall by 10.4%. I've a feeling he's on about a lot of the folk here who voted Remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 "Feeling" does not equal reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Was what happened in Richmond an example of tribalism? In effect the by election ended up into a two horse race between Tory/UKIP and LibDem/Green (and presumably Labour [ex] voters) Is that tribalism (pro v anti Brexit tribes) or some voters putting aside traditional party loyalty toward a larger cause (e.g Labour voters voting for the Lib Dem)? The funny thing about tribalism is that it implies there is more than one tribe, yet some people claim all the fault lies with one side... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 46 minutes ago, exile said: Was what happened in Richmond an example of tribalism? In effect the by election ended up into a two horse race between Tory/UKIP and LibDem/Green (and presumably Labour [ex] voters) Is that tribalism (pro v anti Brexit tribes) or some voters putting aside traditional party loyalty toward a larger cause (e.g Labour voters voting for the Lib Dem)? The funny thing about tribalism is that it implies there is more than one tribe, yet some people claim all the fault lies with one side... No doubt David Torrance is currently working on an article complaining about the "ulsterisation" of English politics. Or maybe not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 On 30/11/2016 at 11:52 AM, DonnyTJS said: Sigh ... I've pointed out 'evidence' that theists could put forward (the prime mover in a universe governed by cause and effect). They also point to all sorts of things from the existence of altruism to leaf-mimicking insects (to be fair, I understand evolutionary theory pretty well, but I struggle to see how leaf-mimics evolved in the detail that they did - though not for a moment do I attribute this to 'design'). You then say that if the existence of god could be proven most rational atheists would accept it... ... What's your definition of 'proof' (or 'rational' for that matter)? But such a thing cannot be proven because metaphysics is a different discourse that lies outside the field of empirical science. (A provable deity would also make a mockery of free will, but that's by the bye). I'm not asking you to accept something for which there's no evidence. You have already done that since you believe in the non-existence of god. I'm asking you to accept that such a thing is ultimately unknowable and therefore the only logical stance is one of radical agnosticism. I get what you're saying Donny. I used to be an atheist till i realised I believed something that there is no evidence for. Must admit i was pretty annoyed with myself, especially considering my smugness about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 7 hours ago, phart said: I used to be an atheist till i realised I believed something that there is no evidence for. Scotland winning the world cup ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 35 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: Scotland winning the world cup ? I could have watched that instead i read the complete works of David Hume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, phart said: I could have watched that instead i read the complete works of David Hume. Had you down more of a Bertrand Russell guy - probably why you are no longer an atheist right enough Edited December 4, 2016 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 8 hours ago, phart said: I used to be an atheist till i realised I believed something that there is no evidence for. Must admit i was pretty annoyed with myself, especially considering my smugness about it. Yes, it's the smugness of holding a position that isn't logically sound that makes me point out its logical flaws occasionally. Trouble is, of course, it's difficult to point out the errors of the smug without coming across as smug. Easier though when they sub-contract their thinking (good phrase of yours that; I'm nicking it ) to the ever-humble Ricky Gervais ... You can only prove something that lies outside the positivist realm of scientific enquiry through deductive reasoning, and for such a proof to be sound you have to found it on a self-evident truth. There is nothing 'self-evident' that leads to a conclusion of the non-existence of god. The atheist argument (like the theist argument) is based on inductive reasoning and therefore fallible, offering no more than probability, and they rarely use inductive logic very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 26 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: Yes, it's the smugness of holding a position that isn't logically sound that makes me point out its logical flaws occasionally. Trouble is, of course, it's difficult to point out the errors of the smug without coming across as smug. Easier though when they sub-contract their thinking (good phrase of yours that; I'm nicking it ) to the ever-humble Ricky Gervais ... You can only prove something that lies outside the positivist realm of scientific enquiry through deductive reasoning, and for such a proof to be sound you have to found it on a self-evident truth. There is nothing 'self-evident' that leads to a conclusion of the non-existence of god. The atheist argument (like the theist argument) is based on inductive reasoning and therefore fallible, offering no more than probability, and they rarely use inductive logic very well. When we start talking specifics like humans with bird heads used to roam the earth ,the Moon is pulled across the sky by the angels, or the Geocentric model it starts to come back into the material world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 What I find interesting is that the atheists are now as intolerant as the theists were. Not that long ago you would be considered a dangerous deviant if you said you were an atheist and now that situation is almost completely reversed. People on here equate it with mental illness etc... We have replaced intolerant believers (in God) with intolerant believers (in no God). There is something about believing in something without conclusive evidence... it then seems to lead you into intolerance of those who do not believe it. It is a funny business, you have to stay on that knife edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, DonnyTJS said: You can only prove something that lies outside the positivist realm of scientific enquiry through deductive reasoning, and for such a proof to be sound you have to found it on a self-evident truth. There is nothing 'self-evident' that leads to a conclusion of the non-existence of god. The atheist argument (like the theist argument) is based on inductive reasoning and therefore fallible, offering no more than probability, and they rarely use inductive logic very well. Surely it is the Theists that are trying to prove that something exists ? ( An omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolant God) Even the most prominent atheists and antitheists (Dawkins and Hitchens) said on numerous occasions that they could not totally disprove the existance of some higher power out there although it was unlikely It's the God of all major mainstream religions that atheists disbelieve Edited December 4, 2016 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Good to see Nicola getting torn in about Buffalo Bob and her flip-flop UKIP light views on the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 8 hours ago, thplinth said: What I find interesting is that the atheists are now as intolerant as the theists were. Not that long ago you would be considered a dangerous deviant if you said you were an atheist and now that situation is almost completely reversed. People on here equate it with mental illness etc... We have replaced intolerant believers (in God) with intolerant believers (in no God). There is something about believing in something without conclusive evidence... it then seems to lead you into intolerance of those who do not believe it. It is a funny business, you have to stay on that knife edge. certainty is the problem, we have a biological predisposition to taking certain stands then defend them with all our might, without really investigating it, as imperfect as scientists are, the scientific method as a check and balance works pretty well. Plus situations are always much more complex then we make them out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Anyway - back on track I wish Jim Sillars would shut his trap over the EU/slagging the SNP He is becoming a stooge for the Unionists He could at least wait to we are Independent then start bleating about it ............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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