EU Referendum

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Now, I could be wrong here (it has happened before) but I think he is talking about foreign currency reserves here? In which case, would they not actually be worth more now? If we converted them to GBP that is. It's all relative, I suppose. 

Good point - another Brexit bonus.

[Rossy]

2 hours ago, Glasgowmancity said:

 

I think a lot of that is to do with being a "yes" supporter.  It's far easier to see the problems in the other camp than it is in your own camp.

 

From what I've seen - mainly Unionists on FB & Nationalists on here there's a fairly even split of over the top people between the 2 camps.

I presume you ignore the comments sections of every single newspaper.

The hatred.....and I use that word deliberately....towards independence and the SNP is palpable and constant. If the same comments were being made by independence supporters towards Unionists the Daily Mail would have a 12 page pull-out highlighting 'cyber nats'.

On social media as a whole, I would say that 90% of the hate and abuse comes from Unionists. Maybe you see it differently though, I get that.

 

 

[TDYER63]

24 minutes ago, aaid said:

I think a lot of balanced journalists and broadcasters - there are some - would admit, if only privately, that they as a whole did not put the same level of scrutiny towards the Better Together case as they did to Yes Scotland.  I've certainly heard James Cook say exactly that.   I think to an extent that's understandable as you could argue that as Yes was the "change" option and BT was the status quo, it was incumbent on them to prove their case, perhaps a view that "well we know what things are like now, it's how things will be different in the future that's important".   I'm giving a really big benefit of the doubt here.    

The broadcasters - and BBC in particular - really didn't get it the whole idea of balance either at first.   They seemed to be stuck in the mindset of political balance meaning that they had to give an equal say to each party, whenever it was party politicians involved.  Of course the problem with that was that meant a three v one as Labour, Tories and Lib Dems all lined up against the SNP, the Greens were also pretty sidelined.   As an aside, I think there is some convention or regulation within the Scottish Parliament that a party has to have a minimum of five seats to be considered as an official political group.  With that comes a lot of rights when it comes to parliamentary time, funding and treatment by the media.   I picked up on this on the night of last year's Scottish Elections where someone pointed out that the Lib Dems just scraped over the line and the look of horror on the Lib Dem spokesperson on the panel was palpable.   

This changed a bit during the official campaign as it went straight down Yes Scotland/Better Together lines.   Once the referendum was over though, it was right back to normal and the best example was the 4-1 gang up on Sunday Politics Scotland - here.

I'd like to think that things will be different with the next referendum and I strongly suspect that Yes will be better supported in the print media - for example, I fully expect the Daily Record to endorse independence this time around - but the problem with the BBC and News and Current Affairs is that they do not seem to be capable of the self-reflection and introspection you are talking about as they seem to flat out admit that they might be wrong or have made mistakes.   The current example of BBC News' reaction to the BBC Trust's review of Laura Kuenssberg's report on Jeremy Corbyn brings that into sharp focus.  

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jan/18/bbc-trust-says-laura-kuenssberg-report-on-jeremy-corbyn-was-inaccurate-labour

 

Hmmm, and if they are unwilling to accept the BBC Trusts findings what are the chances of them accepting Ofcoms in the future? Is it possible Ofcom will be more impartial ? 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, Auld_Reekie said:

I'd kinda agree with that.

However, I wouldn't say there's the same, even distribution of people who are willing to openly debate the merits/flaws of their own stance/campaign. IMO, this is to the great credit of the Yes campaign where there's far more people willing to debate flaws, strategy, ideas, etc. This is something that is sadly lacking on the No side, and is hugely detrimental to the Union. There's very superficial noises from Scottish Labour about federalism but by and large, No campaigners online spend almost all of their time looking at and attacking "Nats" rather than self-reflection and introspection. And while Im not one of the frothing-mouthed Nats who campaign outside BBC headquarters, too many journalists allow themselves to look like Unionists by doing exactly the same as No campaigners - you only have to look at the scrutiny and criticism leveled at the independence White Paper and any similar reaction to the lack of substantial blueprint or White Paper on the future of the Union, or the sheer void of the Leave campaign to see the problem.

Diversity, self-criticism and debate are the keys to the evolution of an idea. It's why the independence movement will eventually win - they're at least trying to bring the electorate and their campaign closer together, Meanwhile, Unionists sit and fling $hit at everything.

Both campaigns have their fair share of idiots, but only one campaign seems to be proactive.

If you are not in politics you should be. Same to Aaid. 

I may only be seeing what I want to of course, but IMO your posts are always balanced, reasoned and calm.  Attributes sadly lacking in many politicians these days. 

[mariokempes56]

35 minutes ago, Rossy said:

I presume you ignore the comments sections of every single newspaper.

The hatred.....and I use that word deliberately....towards independence and the SNP is palpable and constant. If the same comments were being made by independence supporters towards Unionists the Daily Mail would have a 12 page pull-out highlighting 'cyber nats'.

On social media as a whole, I would say that 90% of the hate and abuse comes from Unionists. Maybe you see it differently though, I get that.

 

 

Agreed - I, stupidly, visited the BBC site and followed a story (tbh it doesnt matter which one) and the comments were 99% anti-Scotland/SNP/that wee woman etc etc....and I would not risk my health to visit the Mail...

The point in "discussion" wasn't even about Indie. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by mariokempes56

[Rossy]

8 minutes ago, mariokempes56 said:

Agreed - I, stupidly, visited the BBC site and followed a story (tbh it doesnt matter which one) and the comments were 99% anti-Scotland/SNP/that wee woman etc etc....and I would not risk my health to visit the Mail...

The point in "discussion" wasn't even about Indie. 

This is why I believe that the 2nd referendum will be nowhere as civil as the first. 

Many on the Unionist side have no intention of 'making a positive case'...it's long past that. All they're interested in is closing off debate by making as much hate and abuse-filled white noise as they can. 

As Reekie pointed out, the challenge for the Yes campaign will be to remain positive, persuading and calm in amongst all the screaming abuse that's coming its way.

 

[Toepoke]

India looking to guarantee free movement of labour as part of any trade deal with the UK. That'll go down well with many vote leave types...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-britain-india-trade-deal-freedom-of-movement-delhi-boris-johnson-a7534026.html

 

[thewelk]

41 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

India looking to guarantee free movement of labour as part of any trade deal with the UK. That'll go down well with many vote leave types...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-britain-india-trade-deal-freedom-of-movement-delhi-boris-johnson-a7534026.html

 

WE VOTED TO STOP THE IMIGRANTS AND THEY LET IN A BUNCH OF PAKIS INSTED!! THATS JUST NOT ON

[antidote]

2 hours ago, Toepoke said:

India looking to guarantee free movement of labour as part of any trade deal with the UK. That'll go down well with many vote leave types...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-britain-india-trade-deal-freedom-of-movement-delhi-boris-johnson-a7534026.html

 

The funny thing is that, at the moment, the uk exports more to Ireland than we do to India.

India will be looking to send all it's cheap stuff over here, as well as a good portion of its population, but take very little in return.

The uk Government thinks it's going to have the best of both worlds with un-stifled trade with the eu and the rest of the world.

There will be strings attached to all the trade deals the uk have to do with the rest of the world as wellas the eu.

[Ally Bongo]

[kumnio]

Very polite summary of tonights panel.

Can I punch AC yet..

[Ally Bongo]

Joanna Cherry excellent again today giving it to Weetabix

 

[aaid]

16 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Joanna Cherry excellent again today giving it to Weetabix

 

She really is a class act.  In the middle of that, I don't think I've seen anyone talk for so long without being interrupted by Andrew Neil.

[Ally Bongo]

5 minutes ago, aaid said:

She really is a class act.  In the middle of that, I don't think I've seen anyone talk for so long without being interrupted by Andrew Neil.

Probably shit feart of her - Intelligent, Eloquent and a QC !

[aaid]

Just now, Ally Bongo said:

Probably shit feart of her - Intelligent, Eloquent and a QC !

100%

[vanderark14]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/business/north-of-scotland/1145729/flotilla-mkii/

well who didn't see this coming?

 

[Guest flumax]

56 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/business/north-of-scotland/1145729/flotilla-mkii/

well who didn't see this coming?

 

If you've a subscription,  fancy uploading and linking to archive.is please 

[vanderark14]

2 minutes ago, flumax said:

If you've a subscription,  fancy uploading and linking to archive.is please 

I don't have a subcription

[Alibi]

The fishermen at last realising that their industry was harmed by Westminster, who regard Scottish fishing as expendable in negotiations, and not by the SNP government as some seem to say.  Fishing is not devolved, I don't think.  Correct me if that's wrong.

[Stewart_Aberdeen]

Trawlermen who sailed up the Thames in a pro-Brexit demonstration could send an angry armada to the UK Parliament amid fears the fleet has been “betrayed” by the prime minister.

The Fishing for Leave campaign represented skippers and crews across the country during the EU referendum campaign and were joined by Ukip leader Nigel Farage on a 30-vessel flotilla to London.

They even clashed with charity campaigner and former Boomtown Rat Bob Geldof on the Thames.

But now they have warned Theresa May’s flagship speech on Brexit did not offer a strong enough stance to protect the fishing rights of British vessels.

And the group is considering fresh action to ensure their industry is given an exemption to escape a repeat of the controversial Common Fisheries Policy (CFP).

When the UK negotiated its way into the European Common Market in 1973 then-prime minister Ted Heath was accused of “selling out” the fleet.

Since then, the CFP has given EU member states equal access to each other’s waters, allowing foreign vessels to fish around the Scottish coast.

Last night, skipper Alan Hastings, spokesman for Fishing for Leave, said his colleagues were “spooked” by Mrs May making no mention of British fishing in her speech.

He said: “Although a small industry, it is one the government could utilise to show its resolve on taking back control of our borders and ending the authority of EU law.

“Therefore, why not mention what could be a beacon for Brexit?”

The lobbyists are calling for the CFP to be scrapped altogether, rather than being adopted into UK law and then later repealed as has been proposed.

A recent report from the group estimated scrapping the CFP could be worth £6.3billion to the UK economy and sustain tens of thousands of new jobs.

Mr Hastings warned there may be a repeat of the flotilla demonstration or other “publicity stunts” if the government does not protect UK fleets.

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The Ayrshire skipper added: “There’s something fishy going on down in London at the moment.”

Liberal Democrat MSP Tavish Scott has also warned the government that Scotland’s fishing communities “know their history”.

The Shetland MSP said: “They have been on the end of politics for decades.

“Edward Heath’s Tory government traded the industry away in the 1970s when Britain joined the common market.

“Is history about to repeat itself? Theresa May’s Brexit speech this week set out her negotiating position as the UK leaves the EU.

 

“In a little-reported passage, she cited industries who would want a good deal for the UK. German exporters, French farmers and Spanish fishermen.”

Mr Scott said Mrs May’s throwaway concession to Spanish skippers would open the door to fleets from around the continent.

He added: “That does not sound a good deal for the Scottish fishing industry. Are the Tories about to sell us out again?”

However, another prominent pro-Brexit skipper, Peterhead’s Jimmy Buchan, urged caution from his colleagues.

The former Conservative candidate for Westminster, who was part of the flotilla, said: “The detail hasn’t been negotiated yet.

“What she did say is that the European migrant workforce who work in our fish processing will be protected.”

When the Fishing for Leave flotilla sailed to Westminster in June they were broadsided by Bob Geldof who was pictured holding two fingers up towards Mr Farage.

In the wake of the clash Mr Geldof was accused of attempting to “torpedo” the event but a spokesman for the singer said it was important someone made a “counter-argument”.

Last night a UK Government spokeswoman said: “We recognise the importance of our fishing industry and we will be working hard to secure the best possible deal for all our fishermen – both now, and for the future.

“Leaving the EU is a real opportunity to review fisheries management in order to ensure fair access to quota, sustainable stocks and a healthy marine environment.

[aaid]

29 minutes ago, Alibi said:

The fishermen at last realising that their industry was harmed by Westminster, who regard Scottish fishing as expendable in negotiations, and not by the SNP government as some seem to say.  Fishing is not devolved, I don't think.  Correct me if that's wrong.

So in finally realising they are about to be sold down the river by Westminster, the fishermen are going to sail up the river to Westminster.*

My understanding is that while fisheries is technically devolved to Holyrood, the setting of policy around fishing, quotas, etc., happens in Brussels under the Common Fishing Policy.  It is only the implementation that the SG are involved in.  The same principle applies with Farming.

The issue here is two-fold, firstly any relations with other nations falls under foreign policy which is reserved, so the SG could do nothing if the UK government agreed to open up the territorial waters to the Spanish, for example.

Secondly, there is no guarantee that post Brexit, Fisheries and Farming will automatically be devolved.  The Tories are careful not to commit to this and the coded lines around having a Farming and Fisheries policy that works for the whole of the UK and that no current devolved powers would be repatriated to Westminster from Holyrood suggests strongly that they won't be.

 

 

*available as a speechwriter.

[scoobydoo]

I think May made a blunder by saying 'Spanish fishermen', even if it wasn't in the context of fishing rights. 

[aaid]

19 hours ago, Rossy said:

I presume you ignore the comments sections of every single newspaper.

The hatred.....and I use that word deliberately....towards independence and the SNP is palpable and constant. If the same comments were being made by independence supporters towards Unionists the Daily Mail would have a 12 page pull-out highlighting 'cyber nats'.

On social media as a whole, I would say that 90% of the hate and abuse comes from Unionists. Maybe you see it differently though, I get that.

 

 

I generally find its better to not look at the comments sections.  You very rarely get anything interesting as any line of argument degenerates pretty quickly.  About the same as mentioning Ian Durrant on here*.

I do occasionally dip my toes into Herald's comments for light amusement and I see you giving as good as you get.

*did you see what I did there.

Edited January 20, 2017 by aaid

[Guest flumax]

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

 Fishing is not devolved, I don't think.  Correct me if that's wrong.

You're wrong http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx

Good summary of sea activities devolved and reserved here http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2011/03/16182005/21

 UK is responsible for CFP as the member state, however this is passed back to Marine Scotland Compliance to deal with (interesting to note that the folk warranted to do that  are still termed British Sea Fisheries Officers). In addition the waters around Scotland are 

 

Marine Scotland do get round the table for quotas and do represent UK often in place of CEFAS and AFBI as 60%+uk landings in Scotland. 

 

Interesting aspect of leaving EU often ignored is that uk fishermen land about 400kt in UK and about 300kt outwith. So the fishermen could well be shooting themselves in the foot on that one (nevermind market access of course, access to workforce, and UK is actually a net importer of fish).

 

If I was the FM I would be showing how much of a European participant Scotland is and allowing access to Scottish waters to EU vessels  in exchange for access to EU waters and ports to Scottish boats. It is one devolved matter which has international Diplomacy unlike most areas of the SG. Of course if this was rereserved (is that a word)   that would also cause some constitutional fun and gsmes

 

 

[antidote]

35 minutes ago, flumax said:

You're wrong http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx

Good summary of sea activities devolved and reserved here http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2011/03/16182005/21

 UK is responsible for CFP as the member state, however this is passed back to Marine Scotland Compliance to deal with (interesting to note that the folk warranted to do that  are still termed British Sea Fisheries Officers). In addition the waters around Scotland are 

 

Marine Scotland do get round the table for quotas and do represent UK often in place of CEFAS and AFBI as 60%+uk landings in Scotland. 

 

Interesting aspect of leaving EU often ignored is that uk fishermen land about 400kt in UK and about 300kt outwith. So the fishermen could well be shooting themselves in the foot on that one (nevermind market access of course, access to workforce, and UK is actually a net importer of fish).

 

If I was the FM I would be showing how much of a European participant Scotland is and allowing access to Scottish waters to EU vessels  in exchange for access to EU waters and ports to Scottish boats. It is one devolved matter which has international Diplomacy unlike most areas of the SG. Of course if this was rereserved (is that a word)   that would also cause some constitutional fun and gsmes

 

 

Is it not the case that inshore fishing, 12 nautical miles of the coast line, is devolved, but anything beyond that, deep sea fishing, is still a westminster issue?