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16 minutes ago, aaid said:

 Interesting that Blair McDougall is floating the idea of fighting IndyRef2 on immigration.  I hope they do - while it'll be a very nasty campaign - it'll be the end of them as it will lose them a lot more support than they gain.

As much as it pains me to say it I think you are underestimating the amount of anti foreign views in Scotland particularly amongst the older generation. 

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15 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

As much as it pains me to say it I think you are underestimating the amount of anti foreign views in Scotland particularly amongst the older generation. 

Who - in the vast majority - voted No last time anyway.

I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone in Scotland is outward looking and welcoming when it comes to immigrants and foreigners but I don't think the circumstances that saw immigration becoming *the* key factor in English politics applies to Scotland for an number of reasons, not least because instead of blaming all our problems on foreigners, we've been blaming the English for centuries ?.

In all seriousness, extreme right wing politics has never really had any form of support in Scotland.

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22 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

What motivated 40% to vote to leave the EU? 

Immigraton isn't extreme right wing politics anymore. 

It doesn't get to be in the middle ground overnight.  

Why is it that UKIP are an irrelevance in Scotland and yet are setting the political agenda in England?

 

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8 minutes ago, aaid said:

It doesn't get to be in the middle ground overnight.  

Why is it that UKIP are an irrelevance in Scotland and yet are setting the political agenda in England?

 

Good question, one I don't have the answer to. 

That still doesn't ease my concern at the EU referendum vote split. 

 

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2 hours ago, stocky said:

Scotland exports 46 billion to England (12 Billion to EU)

England exports 52 Billion to Scotland .  Scotland is Englands Single BIGGEST export market... 

Ireland Biggest Export Market is the UK,  is isnt ruled by the UK ,  

we need to stop making Trade a Stick the Scotbuts (;)) can hit the YES campaign with , its not a reason for dependency. .

 

Canada Exports 70% of all its trade to the USA, that doesnt mean they are controlled by them 

 

 

Today the Scottish Government published a new report detailing Scotland’s export statistics in 2015.

The new figures demonstrate that Scotland, with its well-endowed resources and manufacturing, is exporting to the value of £78.6bn (excluding oil and gas) to countries all over the world. Once you add the latest oil and gas figures – Scotland’s exports of oil and gas were worth £19.4bn (SNAP Commodity Balances and Trade) – this grows to almost £100bn. The oil price drop will lower that figure in the next set of Oil and Gas stats, but will rise again the following year as the oil price has recovered slightly and oil production has increased

Breakdown of exports

Exports (excluding oil and gas) were focused on the food, drink and tobacco sector (at £8.9bn), the financial services (£8.6bn) and the wholesale sector (£8.35bn). Without calculating exports to rUK, whisky exports to the international market was worth £3.8 billion.

Between 2002-2015 the food and drink sector increased by 73%. The 2017 target to exceed an industry turnover of £12.5bn was achieved in the 2011 yearly figures.

The food and drink sector is growing so quickly that it is expected to almost double its number of employees by 2024 to meet the sector’s growing demands.  In particular the whisky industry, which opened 9 new distilleries between 2014-2016 and have a further 40 planned for the future. Without the success of Scotch whisky exports, the UK’s trade deficit would have been 12% higher in 2015.

As well as its resources, Scotland also has its connections. Scotland’s top international export destinations in 2015 were the USA (at £4.56bn), the Netherlands (at £2.3bn), France (at £1.8bn), Germany (at £1.75bn) and Norway (at £1.3bn).

Denmark, Ireland, Spain, Switzerland and Brazil all import more than £740 million of Scottish exports each.

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2 hours ago, aaid said:

Who - in the vast majority - voted No last time anyway.

I'm not naive enough to believe that everyone in Scotland is outward looking and welcoming when it comes to immigrants and foreigners but I don't think the circumstances that saw immigration becoming *the* key factor in English politics applies to Scotland for an number of reasons, not least because instead of blaming all our problems on foreigners, we've been blaming the English for centuries ?.

In all seriousness, extreme right wing politics has never really had any form of support in Scotland.

That's true.

However, Scotland is an inherently conservative (small 'c') country and it's difficult to change mindsets that mean people are happy to accept changing events that they feel they have no control over, but are unwilling to take the leap to make the choice to take control themselves.

(Read it twice).

The key to independence is for the SNP to persuade the majority of Scots who are not naturally right-wing and who are disturbed by events in Westminster, to vote 'Yes'.

I have no doubt at all that there are plenty of Scots who are appalled by the ultra right-wing agenda being set by the Tories, but who balance it out by saying 'aye, but I cannae stand thon Sturgeon/Salmond'.

Will the obvious fact of Scotland's democratic deficit be ignored by Scots next time around ? I don't know....but if current events don't change minds then I'm afraid absolutely nothing ever will.

 

 

 

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Immigration is the elephant in the room in Scotland which everyone ignores. Scotland has similar social attitudes to England on immigration but its been repressed with a very small level of immigration into the country.  Ignoring peoples concerns and saying "everything is ok" only leads to future issues.

This does not make for pleasant reading

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/09/3916

This is not a British thing, a Tory thing, a Scottish thing etc.  Its a development over past couple decades in Western society.

For example Rossy - your home in Netherlands is going through some challenging times.  The left wing parties are losing supprt and the place is getting more anti-immigration.  When I met my mates friends from uni over for Ajax v Celtic every person would talk about Amsterdam and say "I'm not racist but....:  

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6 minutes ago, Alan said:

Immigration is the elephant in the room in Scotland which everyone ignores. Scotland has similar social attitudes to England on immigration but its been repressed with a very small level of immigration into the country.  Ignoring peoples concerns and saying "everything is ok" only leads to future issues.

This does not make for pleasant reading

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/09/3916

This is not a British thing, a Tory thing, a Scottish thing etc.  Its a development over past couple decades in Western society.

If it was all to do with a lower level of immigration then how do you account for the fact that in Engalnd and Wales some of the larger Leave voting regions have relatively low levels of immigration?

Did you read the report or did you just look at the executive summary?

From section 5

Between 2002 and 2010 the pattern was broadly one of little or no change in the level of discriminatory attitudes towards people with certain protected characteristics marrying a close relative or being suitable as a primary school teacher. In contrast between 2010 and 2015 there has been a consistent trend towards a reduction in the prevalence of discriminatory attitudes. With barely an exception, fewer people said they would be unhappy about a relative marrying someone who shares certain protected characteristics than was the case in 2010, while the same was true of people's perception of the suitability of specific groups to be a primary school teacher (see Chapters 3 and 4 for full details). In this chapter we consider how this trend might be accounted for.

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5 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

It will come down to the economy more than likely, 45% voted yes despite the lack of clairiy on currency, but the media will just be as biased as before. I think it would be a mistake to call a referendum before the full impact of leaving the EU is apparent. 

This.  As the full situation unfolds, banks moving jobs to mainland Europe or even to Ireland and that sort of thing, more and more people will move to indy.  Apart from the proudscotbuts, obviously... :)

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35 minutes ago, Alan said:

Immigration is the elephant in the room in Scotland which everyone ignores. Scotland has similar social attitudes to England on immigration but its been repressed with a very small level of immigration into the country.  Ignoring peoples concerns and saying "everything is ok" only leads to future issues.

This does not make for pleasant reading

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/09/3916

This is not a British thing, a Tory thing, a Scottish thing etc.  Its a development over past couple decades in Western society.

For example Rossy - your home in Netherlands is going through some challenging times.  The left wing parties are losing supprt and the place is getting more anti-immigration.  When I met my mates friends from uni over for Ajax v Celtic every person would talk about Amsterdam and say "I'm not racist but....:  

I don't think anyone has inferred that Scottish attitudes are much different to English attitudes when it comes to immigration. What has been said is that there has never been any real level of support for hard right-wing policies in Scotland, and that is true. Maybe it would be different if Scotland had high levels of immigration, I don't know. But we don't, so people react to their circumstances and environment....you can't say, 'ah but, what if...'.

As to The Netherlands, I'm sure that your friends would have told you that there are has never been a huge level of support for left-wing parties over here. The Dutch government is always a coalition government, and is generally right of centre. I've no idea what will happen in the upcoming elections...the newspaper headlines this morning say that 70% of Dutch voters are undecided.

I agree completely that the issue of immigration worldwide has been poorly handled by governments for years now, and is solely responsible for the rise of the right-wing that we're seeing today.

As an addendum to that, and to your friends comments, I do believe that negative comments about immigration are based far more on perception rather than reality. I hear the same grumbles here that people have made in the UK, yet if you ask people to name one negative event involving immigrants that has effected them personally or they've personally witnessed, they can't. It's always a 3rd party story.

It's also a fact that immigrants in The Netherlands are generally better integrated than in other countries, and it's a fact that over the last decade The Netherlands has been one of the harder European countries to enter....many immigrants here are second or third generation.

On the other hand, Wilders and his party of hard right-wingers are populists and fear-mongers, and like Farage and Trump they know how to push people's buttons and awake their prejudices. I've no doubt their vote will increase in March.

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If the reason Scotland doesn't vote for UKIP like our English brothers is because of lower levels of immigration, can someone please explain why Ireland (which has a foreign-born population HIGHER than that of the UK, source) has not spawned a Farage/Wilders type party?

Could it have something to do with the fact the Irish electorate are not exposed daily to xenophobic right-wing media?

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1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

If the reason Scotland doesn't vote for UKIP like our English brothers is because of lower levels of immigration, can someone please explain why Ireland (which has a foreign-born population HIGHER than that of the UK, source) has not spawned a Farage/Wilders type party?

Could it have something to do with the fact the Irish electorate are not exposed daily to xenophobic right-wing media?

The Irish don't have a  history of proclaiming to "rule the waves" though.

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Immigration is less of an issue due to the people in Scotland experiencing a  high immigrant  population and therefore  greater assimilation and acceptance. 

How many other countries (assuming Scotland is a country in its own right ) have a population consisting of 16.7% (9.7 rUK, 0.4RoI, 2.6 EU, 4 other) people not born in that country? On average,  Every sixth person you meet will not be born in  Scotland. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, flumax said:

Immigration is less of an issue due to the people in Scotland experiencing a  high immigrant  population and therefore  greater assimilation and acceptance. 

How many other countries (assuming Scotland is a country in its own right ) have a population consisting of 16.7% (9.7 rUK, 0.4RoI, 2.6 EU, 4 other) people not born in that country? On average,  Every sixth person you meet will not be born in  Scotland. 

 

 

Don't want to piss on your chips but England has almost exactly the same immigrant percentage on that basis.  From the 2011 census, 83.64% of the population was English born. 

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There is not much I disagree with in above comments.  When I was canvassing and data entry during indyref the topics which consistently came up were economy and currency.  I never saw EU. But way below the top 2 topics immigration woukd keep popping up between Yes and No voters. It is there and bubbling under.  The great paradox is people will not be racist, will have no issue with the nice family on the street from xxxx but "the others from other countries, they are the ones we worry about."  Its such a strong illogical feeling out there.

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52 minutes ago, Alan said:

  The great paradox is people will not be racist, will have no issue with the nice family on the street from xxxx but "the others from other countries, they are the ones we worry about."  Its such a strong illogical feeling out there.

My dad is 85 years old and voted 'leave', with his sole reason for doing so being immigration.

Now, in his whole life living in Scotland, the only foreigners he has ever met are the guy who sells him his paper every day, and the doctors and nurses who look after him when he has to go into hospital for treatment.

He has absolutely no personal negative experiences of foreigners or immigrants...none, zilch, nothing. And he's not alone in that....I would hazard a strong guess that the vast majority of people who cited immigration as their main reason for voting Leave have never had one single negative experience with immigrants in their whole life.

I don't blame my old man. I detest those who use people like my dad as means of getting the hate-filled, suspicious, xenophobic, inward-looking country that they've always wanted.

But....and for once here I'm in full agreement with you....the seeds of this lamentable harvest were sown over the last  2 decades by European leaders who have been unable to recognise the danger bubbling under the surface in regards to immigration. There's no doubt about that.

Edited by Rossy
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I see that there are reports from Catalonia that the government there has unofficial agreement from 11 EU countries that they will recognise their independence.   There is due to be a referendum in September - which will not be binding under the Spanish constitution - but the expectation is that if they win, they will declare UDI.   If so, then that will make the "Spain will veto Scotland " argument null and void.  

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1 hour ago, Alan said:

There is not much I disagree with in above comments.  When I was canvassing and data entry during indyref the topics which consistently came up were economy and currency.  I never saw EU. But way below the top 2 topics immigration woukd keep popping up between Yes and No voters. It is there and bubbling under.  The great paradox is people will not be racist, will have no issue with the nice family on the street from xxxx but "the others from other countries, they are the ones we worry about."  Its such a strong illogical feeling out there.

I guess that if you hear often enough that something is a problem then you'll start to believe that it is, even if you've no actual experience in your own life to back that up.

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1 hour ago, aaid said:

Don't want to piss on your chips but England has almost exactly the same immigrant percentage on that basis.  From the 2011 census, 83.64% of the population was English born. 

English born does not mean that they are of English "heritage", around 20% of births are to non-UK born mothers.

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15 minutes ago, Larky Masher said:

English born does not mean that they are of English "heritage", around 20% of births are to non-UK born mothers.

It's actually higher than that - 27.5% in 2015 - but then people born in the UK aren't immigrants, are they?

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