EU Referendum

[aaid]

28 minutes ago, Rossy said:

40 years ago you had people riding donkeys down Grafton Street in Dublin, and Greece, Spain and Portugal were 3rd world countries with economies and living standards closer to Africa than northern Europe. 

Greece in particular was an economic basket case with a medieval tax system. And when everything was f*cked, every generation or so, they simply devalued their currency, wrote everything off and started again. 

EU investment dragged these countries into the 20th century and has supported and boosted their economies. 

Maybe none of them should have joined the Euro, but the Euro is certainly not to blame for 'making people in these countries poorer'. They were already f*cked because of a lifetime of mismanagement by their own governments.

Ireland is an interesting case in point. Somewhere around the late 80s/early 90s, they made a conscious decision to align their currency to the DM rather than the pound and to focus on business with Europe rather than the UK.   Their per capita GDP exceeded the UK's around 2000 and despite their increased exposure to the global financial crash in 2008, it's been higher ever since- currently around 20% higher than the UK.

[Alan]

50 minutes ago, aaid said:

You make some good points but whenever you bring people who didn't vote in an attempt to make the result look different you void your argument.   More people voted Yes or didn't vote than No in 2014, that's meaningless as well.  

Its interesting though that you had conditional support for the EU but you have unconditional support for the UK.

Only void because you disagree perhaps?  But it was not part of my argument more a side point where the pro-EU feeling of Scotland is misrepresented.  I'm pretty sure I'm more pro-EU than 1/3 of SNP politicians at least.

I have conditional support for everything.  I'm not a nationalist.  My priority is my family. The argument for staying in EU was weaker than UK.

[aaid]

26 minutes ago, Alan said:

Only void because you disagree perhaps?  But it was not part of my argument more a side point where the pro-EU feeling of Scotland is misrepresented.  I'm pretty sure I'm more pro-EU than 1/3 of SNP politicians at least.

I have conditional support for everything.  I'm not a nationalist.  My priority is my family. The argument for staying in EU was weaker than UK.

Nope. It's not an argument that I've ever accepted whether or not it suits my opinion or not.

You're trying to suggest that enough people didn't care enough about the EU, that there isn't the popular support in Scotland that is claimed.   

I could as easily say that it proves that people didn't care enough about leaving the EU and that anti-EU feeling is over exaggerated. 

You can't imply anything from the fact that people didn't vote other than that they were not sufficiently engaged to vote and there may be many different reasons why that's the case.

You've said in the past that you couldn't see any circumstances in which you'd vote for Independence, that sounds pretty unconditional to me. 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, PapofGlencoe said:

We're seeing an alignment of the economies.  Lays bare the discrepancies in the cost of living between the different economies.  Whether the long term goal of all that is worth doing is an interesting debating point.  Not being able to devalue will affect people.

Bit off topic but alongside the economy alignment, the technology changing and ordinary peoples' labour becoming less valuable a real problem is going to bubble away in the next 15 years.

We've gone from manufacturing to service-led to high tech across Scotland, UK and Europe. Pushing ordinary people out of work.  Unless you're in a profession that will be protected by the well off, we're all doing jobs on borrowed time.

In Finance, they're finding new tech which means the job of 10 can be done by 1.  Jobs will be project based and fixed term contracts.  Thin end of the wedge now; ticking time bomb for ordinary people. 

I think we're in the eye of the storm now.  But in ten years I'm not sure many of the office jobs being done now will still exist.  Christ knows what people are going to do.

You are absolutely right re the job situation. Many industries are currently managing to downsize their staffing through natural wastage as people reach pension age and/or have been in a fortunate financial postion due to  house prices going through the roof.  However that is not going to last forever, especially with retirement age going up all the time and young folk up to their neck in mortgages.   

I would hope there will be some natural progression towards inceased employment in the 'new  age' sectors which in turn will create a ripple effect of spin off jobs for less skilled workers, but I have no idea where this will come from. 

From a personal perspective I am not delighted that i am getting closer to retirement age,  but  I am not sure I would want to be 25 either. 

 

[Rossy]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

 

I have conditional support for everything.  I'm not a nationalist.  My priority is my family. The argument for staying in EU was weaker than UK.

Have you not stated on here in the past that there are absolutely no circumstances where you would ever vote for Scottish independence ?

 

[Ally Bongo]

2 hours ago, Rossy said:

Have you not stated on here in the past that there are absolutely no circumstances where you would ever vote for Scottish independence ?

 

This is the same mantra as the likes of Stephenson, Spanner, Rowling, Scott Arthur, Daisley et el

They throw around the usual smears like "worse than Greece" , retweet and revel in every negative piece from the likes of Massey, Andrew Neil, Fraser Nelson et al

Stephenson has been going on ad nauseum that "Separation would devastate Scotland" 

They seem to go the extra length to try and justify their stance 

It is a complete facade though

They all have Jimmy Hood syndrome 

“Even if the SNP was right and there was a grand, great thing at the end of the rainbow for the SNP and its debate for independence, I would still be against it.

If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the Union.“

[jockodile]

It's ironic that those types criticise SNP as being too focused on identity politics.

The loathing of an independent Scotland even if it could hypothetically be proved to be economically better is pure identity politics.  There is definitely a PHD in it, I can not understand this self loathing for people who claim to be proud Scots.

If it was a pure practical economic assessment and the facts were unclear, the 'canny' Scot prudence could see a reason for that position. If it was pure British identity that could also be clearly seen. If it is just somewhere between the two, it is a fascinating mix.

I don't think economics, whilst definitely important, is the b all and end all. Even for those of us as indy friendly, if going independent minus a constituent part of Scotland (say Dumfries & Galloway) that meant our GDP would be higher I would not accept that - would prefer to stay as a united Scotland in UK.

I guess on this Scotland in UK at all costs probably comes from years of dependency culture and handouts from big brother Westminster which has really become ingrained in some heads. When when added to vitriolic dislike of political advance of SNP at Labour's expense has driven further closed minds.

I often wonder if some types actively cheer economic bad news purely to avoid the risk of an independent country. I think this whole thing is deeply damaging to national psyche but reckon would be ancient history with only 1 generation post a Yes vote.

Edited February 24, 2017 by jockodile

[Return of Yermaw]

9 hours ago, aaid said:

 

5 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

 

 

return to the Board after a few weeks and see the quote button is still fecked.......

Edited February 24, 2017 by Return of Yermaw

[Return of Yermaw]

"Stephenson has been going on ad nauseum that "Separation would devastate Scotland" 

I would suggest that for many of the well off in Scotland, "devastion" simply means them and their family being fractionally less well off than before. It woudnt matter that other much less well off people would be better served by idependence and society would potentially be much fairer. if independence risks them losing £100 per month or paying £100 more then that is "devastation" in their eyes.

and you will note that "family" is always used when justifying this stance to try and mask any suggestion of being greedy, myopic or self serving. 

[Och Aye]

Hasn't JK Rowling said she would reconsider her stance after the Brexit vote? 

[Regenmann]

5 hours ago, jockodile said:

It's ironic that those types criticise SNP as being too focused on identity politics.

The loathing of an independent Scotland even if it could hypothetically be proved to be economically better is pure identity politics. There is definitely a PHD in it, I can not understand this self loathing for people who claim to be proud Scots.

If it was a pure practical economic assessment and the facts were unclear, the 'canny' Scot prudence could see a reason for that position. If it was pure British identity that could also be clearly seen. If it is just somewhere between the two, it is a fascinating mix.

I don't think economics, whilst definitely important, is the b all and end all. Even for those of us as indy friendly, if going independent minus a constituent part of Scotland (say Dumfries & Galloway) that meant our GDP would be higher I would not accept that - would prefer to stay as a united Scotland in UK.

I guess on this Scotland in UK at all costs probably comes from years of dependency culture and handouts from big brother Westminster which has really become ingrained in some heads. When when added to vitriolic dislike of political advance of SNP at Labour's expense has driven further closed minds.

I often wonder if some types actively cheer economic bad news purely to avoid the risk of an independent country. I think this whole thing is deeply damaging to national psyche but reckon would be ancient history with only 1 generation post a Yes vote.

I'd go to great lengths to avoid someone that described himself / herself as a 'proud Scot'.  Fortunately, I've never encountered such a person. 

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, Regenmann said:

I'd go to great lengths to avoid someone that described himself / herself as a 'proud Scot'.  Fortunately, I've never encountered such a person. 

He is on Twitter

Comes from Aberdeen

And is an Uber Yoon Brit Nat troll

 

[TDYER63]

3 hours ago, Return of Yermaw said:

"Stephenson has been going on ad nauseum that "Separation would devastate Scotland" 

I would suggest that for many of the well off in Scotland, "devastion" simply means them and their family being fractionally less well off than before. It woudnt matter that other much less well off people would be better served by idependence and society would potentially be much fairer. if independence risks them losing £100 per month or paying £100 more then that is "devastation" in their eyes.

and you will note that "family" is always used when justifying this stance to try and mask any suggestion of being greedy, myopic or self serving. 

Yep. Any normal human being would want to do the best for their family, its folk who can see and feel for those beyond that who have the vision and compassion. 

[aaid]

2 hours ago, Regenmann said:

I'd go to great lengths to avoid someone that described himself / herself as a 'proud Scot'.  Fortunately, I've never encountered such a person. 

It's a description that is usually followed by the word "but".

[Parklife]

5 hours ago, Return of Yermaw said:

"Stephenson has been going on ad nauseum that "Separation would devastate Scotland" 

I would suggest that for many of the well off in Scotland, "devastion" simply means them and their family being fractionally less well off than before. It woudnt matter that other much less well off people would be better served by idependence and society would potentially be much fairer. if independence risks them losing £100 per month or paying £100 more then that is "devastation" in their eyes.

and you will note that "family" is always used when justifying this stance to try and mask any suggestion of being greedy, myopic or self serving. 

Spot on. 

[Och Aye]

2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

He is on Twitter

Comes from Aberdeen

And is an Uber Yoon Brit Nat troll

 

I'm convinced Proud Scot is Murdo Fraser 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Och Aye

[Newryrep]

Anybody hear of the constitutional research council ?  - gave the dup over £400k for leave eu advert 

[Alan]

To answer where I can I have never seen any proof that economically I would be better off in a separate Scotland. Never.  Leaving EU and UK would be 2 wrongs and that would not make a right.  

Hard to play morality card about tax or losing cash when vocal posters have not contributed to Scotland in 3 decades each and others support the ruling SNP in performing no income redistribution.  All those powers but aneamic and conservative policies.

ÈU referendum highlighted how dysfunctional and illogical nationalist politics is.  You'll be £xxx better off, unelected HoL (Euro Commission), take back control (Scotland's future in Scotland's hands), £350 m to NHS (GERS oil wealth, whisky export tax), elites, not getting govt who we voted for etc etc.  Memes, "shock jock" bloggers, lies spread by politicians, them and us, populism of only we can solve your complex problems easily.

[kumnio]

8 minutes ago, Alan said:

To answer where I can I have never seen any proof that economically I would be better off in a separate Scotland. Never.  Leaving EU and UK would be 2 wrongs and that would not make a right.  

Hard to play morality card about tax or losing cash when vocal posters have not contributed to Scotland in 3 decades each and others support the ruling SNP in performing no income redistribution.  All those powers but aneamic and conservative policies.

ÈU referendum highlighted how dysfunctional and illogical nationalist politics is.  You'll be £xxx better off, unelected HoL (Euro Commission), take back control (Scotland's future in Scotland's hands), £350 m to NHS (GERS oil wealth, whisky export tax), elites, not getting govt who we voted for etc etc.  Memes, "shock jock" bloggers, lies spread by politicians, them and us, populism of only we can solve your complex problems easily.

I asked you an incredibly simple question, it was along the lines of 'Is there any circumstances that you would support independence? You said No.

 

[Rossy]

2 hours ago, kumnio said:

I asked you an incredibly simple question, it was along the lines of 'Is there any circumstances that you would support independence? You said No.

 

Yeap. 

He whines about 'flag waving, painted face nationalists'. Yet it's obvious he is one himself. 

He criticises Sots who have bettered themselves and widened their horizons. Yet he has absolutely no experience of the wider world himself. 

He opinions like an expert on the EU. Yet his experience of the EU is going to Benidorm for a fortnight, or listening to his Univeristy chums when they come back from a weekend in Amsterdam. 

Never. Trust. Someone. Who. likes. To. Talk. In. Bulletpoints. Like. They. Think. It. Makes. Them. Clever. 

 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

To answer where I can I have never seen any proof that economically I would be better off in a separate Scotland. Never.  Leaving EU and UK would be 2 wrongs and that would not make a right.  

Hard to play morality card about tax or losing cash when vocal posters have not contributed to Scotland in 3 decades each and others support the ruling SNP in performing no income redistribution.  All those powers but aneamic and conservative policies.

ÈU referendum highlighted how dysfunctional and illogical nationalist politics is.  You'll be £xxx better off, unelected HoL (Euro Commission), take back control (Scotland's future in Scotland's hands), £350 m to NHS (GERS oil wealth, whisky export tax), elites, not getting govt who we voted for etc etc.  Memes, "shock jock" bloggers, lies spread by politicians, them and us, populism of only we can solve your complex problems easily.

We've been here many times Alan. Many of the people who want independance are aware that, in the short term at least, they will be worse off. You have categorically said you need proof that YOU would be better off. There lies  the difference, otherrs are willing to make a sacrifice, you are not.  You will never get that proof you require as iindependance needs to exist first.

You admit that you dont like change and I would go as far as to say you would still be riding the donkey that Rossy referred to on a previous post  if you had lived in one of the countries he mentioned . You would rather have that trusted old donkey rather than take a chance on something new.

I  honestly don't mean to be rude saying that, I just think you are very risk averse . That does not make you a bad person, many people feel that way.  On the other hand I am willing to take more of a  chance.

I am however not reckless, I have 2 daughters who are starting out in adult life and i would never jeopardise their future by voting for independance  if I thought this country could not survive on its own. 

I am probably one of the folk you are referring to that support the SNP despite ( in your view) their policies not being progressive. I became a member after the referendum as I was devastated at the result, people will read this and think yeah, another one of those SNP sheep, but they would be wrong.  I know the party is not perfect and of course there are areas where things could be improved however I think they are having to play a fine balancing act because, whether you like it or not, the independance question has not gone away. And no matter what anyone thinks of the party, a second referendum would not even be on the agenda if it wasn't for the surge of support for them after Indyref1.

If and when we ever get independence I will review the situation and provide allegiance to the party or set of people i feel is best to take this country forward . 

[Flure]

11 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

We've been here many times Alan. Many of the people who want independance are aware that, in the short term at least, they will be worse off. You have categorically said you need proof that YOU would be better off. There lies  the difference, otherrs are willing to make a sacrifice, you are not.  You will never get that proof you require as iindependance needs to exist first.

You admit that you dont like change and I would go as far as to say you would still be riding the donkey that Rossy referred to on a previous post  if you had lived in one of the countries he mentioned . You would rather have that trusted old donkey rather than take a chance on something new.

I  honestly don't mean to be rude saying that, I just think you are very risk averse . That does not make you a bad person, many people feel that way.  On the other hand I am willing to take more of a  chance.

I am however not reckless, I have 2 daughters who are starting out in adult life and i would never jeopardise their future by voting for independance  if I thought this country could not survive on its own. 

I am probably one of the folk you are referring to that support the SNP despite ( in your view) their policies not being progressive. I became a member after the referendum as I was devastated at the result, people will read this and think yeah, another one of those SNP sheep, but they would be wrong.  I know the party is not perfect and of course there are areas where things could be improved however I think they are having to play a fine balancing act because, whether you like it or not, the independance question has not gone away. And no matter what anyone thinks of the party, a second referendum would not even be on the agenda if it wasn't for the surge of support for them after Indyref1.

If and when we ever get independence I will review the situation and provide allegiance to the party or set of people i feel is best to take this country forward . 

Well said, that man.

[TDYER63]

5 minutes ago, Flure said:

Well said, that man.

Which reminds me , i will need to get rid of my moustache for the weekend. 

[Flure]

Just now, TDYER63 said:

Which reminds me , i will need to get rid of my moustache for the weekend. 

Why? Where is he?

[TDYER63]

15 minutes ago, Flure said:

Why? Where is he?

I didnt say I  was shaving my legs as well. 

Now bugger off I am watching Corrie.