Holyrood Election - Second Vote

[Parklife]

17 minutes ago, stocky said:

u could be correct, I cannae mind exactly, maybe the discussion stages, the committee bit etc it  was outvoted?

Or mibee they used minority govt it as an excuse, 

maybe they realised it was too hard and thats why it wasnt on 2011 manifesto and used Minority govt to drop it....

I dont think they can really be blamed for not implementing it in a Minority govt. 

I think Tinkering with it is the best we are gonna get for now...... unfortunately...

I'm sorry but that's rubbish. It's a blinkered defence of a very real broken promise from the SNP. 

[Scunnered]

35 minutes ago, stocky said:

u could be correct, I cannae mind exactly, maybe the discussion stages, the committee bit etc it  was outvoted?

Or mibee they used minority govt it as an excuse, 

maybe they realised it was too hard and thats why it wasnt on 2011 manifesto and used Minority govt to drop it....

I dont think they can really be blamed for not implementing it in a Minority govt. 

I think Tinkering with it is the best we are gonna get for now...... unfortunately...

It was never outvoted in any shape or form. Unless internal discussions showed that they couldn't get a majority of SNP to back it... But I really, really can't see that .

[Lamia]

16 minutes ago, Scunnered said:

It was never outvoted in any shape or form. Unless internal discussions showed that they couldn't get a majority of SNP to back it... But I really, really can't see that .

 

God this is tedious! About as lame as all the red Tory, Yellow Tory shite! Surely we can do better than this patter?

[Lamia]

20 minutes ago, Scunnered said:

It was never outvoted in any shape or form. Unless internal discussions showed that they couldn't get a majority of SNP to back it... But I really, really can't see that .

I may be entirely wrong but I would assume that you would want to try to convince people of your arguments, surely you can see all you are doing is likely to get people's backs up and so entrench views which seems a bit self defeating to me. Then again maybe you aren't trying to persuade people - than in itself seems equally self defeating.

 

 

[stocky]

There was a  joint commission to replace it, all parties xcept the Tories, made good progress until after last May, Labour pulled out , Neil Findley was the Labour Guy on it I think,

. and since then it has just fizzled out and now we have the watered down SNP ones for this manifesto.

Increasing top bands.  

 

The SNP are not gonna change it... tinkering is all we have for now.

[Parklife]

25 minutes ago, stocky said:

There was a  joint commission to replace it, all parties xcept the Tories, made good progress until after last May, Labour pulled out , Neil Findley was the Labour Guy on it I think,

. and since then it has just fizzled out and now we have the watered down SNP ones for this manifesto.

Increasing top bands.  

 

The SNP are not gonna change it... tinkering is all we have for now.

So in the 9 years since winning election (5 of which have been in majority government) the SNP have not brought to parliament one single proposal to replace the council tax, despite vowing to do so in their 2007 manifesto? 

[aaid]

46 minutes ago, Lamia said:

I may be entirely wrong but I would assume that you would want to try to convince people of your arguments, surely you can see all you are doing is likely to get people's backs up and so entrench views which seems a bit self defeating to me. Then again maybe you aren't trying to persuade people - than in itself seems equally self defeating.

 

 

I don't know why you bother Susan.  It's impossible to take the guy seriously, he's like the TAMB equivalent of Duncan Hothersall. 

[Parklife]

[thplinth]

So the SNP are getting slagged off now  for not implementing something that was not in their manifesto... FFS I have heard it all now.

As for the 2007 plan people seem to have short memories.

It was Labour who killed it...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1549635/Hutton-therell-be-no-381m-to-aid-tax-plans.html

Funnily enough this was not the case when Labour proposed it's scrap the council tax plans...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/2964037/Benefits-to-continue-under-Labour-tax-plans-but-not-SNPs.html

[Geed]

Done my 2 votes already as I am a postal voter and work at every election.  Both votes for SNP only party with Scotlands best interest at heart, although I do like some of the Green Partys views as well.

[Scunnered]

2 hours ago, Lamia said:

 

God this is tedious! About as lame as all the red Tory, Yellow Tory shite! Surely we can do better than this patter?

You have a guy there attempting to rewrite history, but you focus on my shite patter?  I agree, tedious.

[Orraloon]

2 hours ago, Parklife said:

So in the 9 years since winning election (5 of which have been in majority government) the SNP have not brought to parliament one single proposal to replace the council tax, despite vowing to do so in their 2007 manifesto? 

It might be worth remembering that the Council Tax was introduced by the Tories and was never repealed by Labour despite being in power at both Holyrood and Westminster for many years. It is probably a bit much to expect the SNP to abolish it with both hands tied behind their back. It was maybe a wee bit naive of the SNP to ever think that they could. They just don't have enough control over Scotland's finances. They still won't have enough control after these "new powers" of the Scotland Act 2015 are in place. The SNP have realised that abolishing the Council Tax is not as easy as they might have thought, so, quite logically, they have changed their policy on it. The voters can decide next week how important that change is to  them. 

Personally, I would have preferred them to stick to their policy of fully funding a Council Tax freeze and then, after about 20 to 30 years, Council tax would be insignificant due to the effect of inflation.

Council tax accounts for less than 15% of local council's budgets. Every year that the freeze is in place that percentage gets a wee bit smaller. Council tax is not as big an issue as the media would like to make out.

 

 

[Parklife]

20 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It might be worth remembering that the Council Tax was introduced by the Tories and was never repealed by Labour despite being in power at both Holyrood and Westminster for many years. It is probably a bit much to expect the SNP to abolish it with both hands tied behind their back. It was maybe a wee bit naive of the SNP to ever think that they could. They just don't have enough control over Scotland's finances. They still won't have enough control after these "new powers" of the Scotland Act 2015 are in place. The SNP have realised that abolishing the Council Tax is not as easy as they might have thought, so, quite logically, they have changed their policy on it. The voters can decide next week how important that change is to  them. 

Personally, I would have preferred them to stick to their policy of fully funding a Council Tax freeze and then, after about 20 to 30 years, Council tax would be insignificant due to the effect of inflation.

Council tax accounts for less than 15% of local council's budgets. Every year that the freeze is in place that percentage gets a wee bit smaller. Council tax is not as big an issue as the media would like to make out.

 

 

The SNP said they'd do something, haven't done so (despite being in government for almost a decade) but it's not their fault? 

This place really is full of unquestioning SNP fanboys.  

[Orraloon]

11 minutes ago, Parklife said:

The SNP said they'd do something, haven't done so (despite being in government for almost a decade) but it's not their fault? 

This place really is full of unquestioning SNP fanboys.  

They are politicians. You're not trying to tell me that you are naive enough to think that politicians always do what they say they are going to do, are you?

It was their fault for not realising how difficult it would be. They have realised their mistake and changed their policy. Folk get the chance to vote on their changed policy next week. I don't think the SNP policy on Council Tax will have that much impact on how folk vote.

[thplinth]

So let's see if I can sum this up.

The SNP proposed scrapping council tax in 2007 but this was blocked by Labour threatening to extract 400m in subsidy for council tax('s replacement).

The SNP then drop the plan as workable and do not have it in their 2011 manifesto upon which they won an outright majority.

And this is the SNP "breaking its promises".

You have to admire the sheer arseholery of lefty logik. Up is down black is white. No wonder stopped bothering with a dialogue with these folk. They live in their own wee fantasy world.

[Scunnered]

28 minutes ago, thplinth said:

So let's see if I can sum this up.

The SNP proposed scrapping council tax in 2007 but this was blocked by Labour threatening to extract 400m in subsidy for council tax('s replacement).

The SNP then drop the plan as workable and do not have it in their 2011 manifesto upon which they won an outright majority.

And this is the SNP "breaking its promises".

You have to admire the sheer arseholery of lefty logik. Up is down black is white. No wonder stopped bothering with a dialogue with these folk. They live in their own wee fantasy world.

No one blocked anything, the article you linked to was from the previous parliament when Labour had a minority government. The SNP went into the following election with scrapping the unfair council tax in their manifesto and where elected to a minority government. 

As you say, fantasy world. That is two attempts to rewrite history in the one thread.

[PapofGlencoe]

13 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

You do realise that Scotland has to run it's affairs from the money we get back from Westminster dont you ?

As such any Scottish Government is limited to what it can do

Thats why we want Independence

Being really scunnered is realising some people think otherwise and believe that any Scottish Government can wave a magic wand and be really radical

 

I understand the SNP do not have the full economic levers to change working conditions.  If they want to convince people to vote to give them the tools (independence), let's hear more about what they need and what they would do.

Genuinely, what is the SNPs position on zero hour contracts?  Private sector pay inequality?  Affordable housing?  I'd rather these were the pillars of a manifesto than "I'm with Nicola" nonsense.  Housing is a devolved issue.  There should be a surge in council homes for younger people, not just the desperately needy.  I'm an SNP voter.  It's still an anti-establishment party and strikes fear into London which is good.  For me, I want more policies for working people.  I've been the guy who's always supported the SNP in the tougher times and now that we're much more dominant, taking stock.  

I'm going to stick up for the Council Tax.  It's not been changed because it is actually a good way of doing things.  We have a mixed tax economy.  We're taxed on income, luxuries, cars etc.  Property has to enter the mix. Income is not the only attribute of wealth and evaluating what individuals can afford to contribute.  To make it progressive, you simply apply a premium to those in larger houses..it's actually very straightforward and, I believe, what the SNP have committed to.  

 

edit to add:  The National is an embarrassment and is almost enough in itself to push me into voting for someone else on the list.  I've always considered Scottish independence a noble and intelligent cause.  The National has no credible critque and understanding of the issues.  Can we have a paper of record, please.

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by PapofGlencoe

[thplinth]

A Labour minister telling a minority SNP government they would lose 400m in council tax subsidy if they scrapped council tax for local income tax blocked the plan to scrap it yes. This is a post independence project IMHO.

It was then dropped and the SNP achieved a far higher number of MP's on the manifesto after it was removed (I am assuming this as I never read them).

The attempts at spin on this thread are very Tony Blair'esque (if a little clumsy). Good to see New New Lablour is keep the evil methods of Old New Labour alive.

 

[Orraloon]

19 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I understand the SNP do not have the full economic levers to change working conditions.  If they want to convince people to vote to give them the tools (independence), let's hear more about what they need and what they would do.

Genuinely, what is the SNPs position on zero hour contracts?  Private sector pay inequality?  Affordable housing?  I'd rather these were the pillars of a manifesto than "I'm with Nicola" nonsense.  Housing is a devolved issue.  There should be a surge in council homes for younger people, not just the desperately needy.  I'm an SNP voter.  It's still an anti-establishment party and strikes fear into London which is good.  For me, I want more policies for working people.  I've been the guy who's always supported the SNP in the tougher times and now that we're much more dominant, taking stock.  

I'm going to stick up for the Council Tax.  It's not been changed because it is actually a good way of doing things.  We have a mixed tax economy.  We're taxed on income, luxuries, cars etc.  Property has to enter the mix. Income is not the only attribute of wealth and evaluating what individuals can afford to contribute.  To make it progressive, you simply apply a premium to those in larger houses..it's actually very straightforward and, I believe, what the SNP have committed to.  

 

"We will invest £3 billion to build at least 50,000 affordable homes over the next five years, 35,000 of these will be in the social rented sector."

 

[Marky]

14 hours ago, Orraloon said:

I think it's all pretty simple. If you want the SNP to have an overall majority then the best plan is to vote SNP twice. If you don't want them to have a majority then don't vote for them at all. All this talk of tactical voting is just a crude attempt at getting more unionist MSPs elected. It might just work because a lot of folk just don't have the time or the inclination to understand how our voting system works.

 

 

13 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

You do realise that Scotland has to run it's affairs from the money we get back from Westminster dont you ?

As such any Scottish Government is limited to what it can do

Thats why we want Independence

Being really scunnered is realising some people think otherwise and believe that any Scottish Government can wave a magic wand and be really radical

 

Spot on chaps!

[McDange]

22 hours ago, Parklife said:

Do you see everything as Unionist vs Independence supporting? 

That was the theme of my initial query, so yes.

[Orraloon]

31 minutes ago, Scunnered said:

No one blocked anything, the article you linked to was from the previous parliament when Labour had a minority government. The SNP went into the following election with scrapping the unfair council tax in their manifesto and where elected to a minority government. 

As you say, fantasy world. That is two attempts to rewrite history in the one thread.

Are you reading the right articles? The ones from 2007 and 2008?

[Parklife]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

They are politicians. You're not trying to tell me that you are naive enough to think that politicians always do what they say they are going to do, are you?

Nope. I'm simply pointing out a broken manifesto pledge. The SNP didn't even bring a bill before parliament to scrap the council tax. 

We've subsequently had folk attempt to re-write history and defend the breaking of the promise. 

58 minutes ago, thplinth said:

So let's see if I can sum this up.

 

Looks like you cant. 

34 minutes ago, Scunnered said:

No one blocked anything, the article you linked to was from the previous parliament when Labour had a minority government. The SNP went into the following election with scrapping the unfair council tax in their manifesto and where elected to a minority government. 

As you say, fantasy world. That is two attempts to rewrite history in the one thread.

 

[Scunnered]

20 minutes ago, thplinth said:

A Labour minister telling a minority SNP government they would lose 400m in council tax subsidy if they scrapped council tax for local income tax blocked the plan to scrap it yes. This is a post independence project IMHO.

It was then dropped and the SNP achieved a far higher number of MP's on the manifesto after it was removed (I am assuming this as I never read them).

The attempts at spin on this thread are very Tony Blair'esque (if a little clumsy). Good to see New New Lablour is keep the evil methods of Old New Labour alive.

 

I'm really not getting why this is hard for you...

The article you linked too was BEFORE there was an SNP minority government, at this time there was a LABOUR minority government. Despite what this Labour minister said, the SNP included it in their manifesto for the 2007 election... The U-Turn happened AFTER the election when the SNP had formed a government.  

 

THERE WAS NO FECKIN BLOCKING!!! NOT SPIN, NO BLOCKING OF ANY FECKIN' SORT.

 

[Scunnered]

19 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Are you reading the right articles? The ones from 2007 and 2008?

Yes, I read them both.

2007 - irrelevant as it came before the election, the SNP went into the election with the council tax scrapping in their manifesto.

2008 - Willy waving by the First Minister and Labour about which parties bill is the super best. The First Minister even concludes that his bill is the super best and will be introduced before parliament within a year. 8 months later the U turn happens without the bill even having been raised.