Hillsborough Inquest

[Parklife]

25 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

You have to read the whole blog which he wrote in 2012

It is this that he is being told to hang his head in shame for

http://wosland.podgamer.com/no-justice-for-the-96/

 

And rightly so. The guy is a cretinous whank, with no respect for anyone who disagrees with his opinion. 

[Ally Bongo]

30 minutes ago, Parklife said:

And rightly so. The guy is a cretinous whank, with no respect for anyone who disagrees with his opinion. 

Sounds familiar ..

[Parklife]

10 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Sounds familiar ..

What a sad, wee, pathetic attempt to have a pop at me for no reason at all.  

[aaid]

34 minutes ago, Parklife said:

And rightly so. The guy is a cretinous whank, with no respect for anyone who disagrees with his opinion. 

Kind of proves his point...

[Cove_Sheep]

9 minutes ago, Parklife said:

What a sad, wee, pathetic attempt to have a pop at me for no reason at all.  

Just don't say anything against the 'Hamilton fan's' hero Walter Smith and you'll be fine ;-)

[Parklife]

9 minutes ago, Cove_Sheep said:

Just don't say anything against the 'Hamilton fan's' hero Walter Smith and you'll be fine ;-)

Fortunately, i care not a jot what someone who tries to make sad wee digs like that (especially when it is done in an attempt to defend an abusive misogynist like Stuart Campbell, who's apportioning blame to Liverpool fans for the Hillsborough disaster) thinks.  

[Ally Bongo]

13 minutes ago, Cove_Sheep said:

Just don't say anything against the 'Hamilton fan's' hero Walter Smith and you'll be fine ;-)

Youll need to expand on that as i have no idea what you are on about

[sbcmfc]

I didn't realise they hadn't bulldozed that end of the ground.

Saw a BBC news report from hillsborough, and they've just seated the area.

It looks such a small area with one news reporter sitting there, as opposed to the images we've all seen of the thousands of bodies at the disaster.

In my eyes the actions in the aftermath, are still the real crimes. The disaster itself wasn't caused by any malice, more inaction, incompetence, poor planning.... and an element of bad luck (or was it more running out of luck, as it was luck that it hadn't happened before?)

Hopefully those affected have some sort of closure with the outcome, although I'd imagine the story will rumble on for years to come as they look to hold folk accountable.

[dan cake]

29 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Sounds familiar ..

[MacWalka]

I can't believe that this thread about such a monumental decision in British legal history has degraded into talking about Wings Over Scotland.........Actually I can. This place is bizarre at times.

[thplinth]

It is more a case of pimping out the Hillsborough disaster to settle old scores on twitter with a political opponent..Very New Labour yet again.  

[thplinth]

There seems to be a few strands to it.

1. The behaviour of the fans that precipitated the disaster. (The police opened the gate as they were concerned about a crush at the turnstiles. This then led to far more serious crush inside.)
2. The incompetence of the police making the decisions at the ground that day when faced with the problems.
3. The behaviour of senior police after the disaster had happened.

2 & 3 have been pretty much established with 3. especially being astonishing (at how dishonest and criminal they were in their efforts to escape their incompetence that day). It is a window into what the police are capable of. Very ugly indeed.

As for 1. - is it right to assign 0% of the blame that day on the fans outside trying to get in. I might mostly blame the police but can I say the fans trying to get in are 100% innocent. I think it is a fair question if the police are facing criminal charges.

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, sbcmfc said:

I didn't realise they hadn't bulldozed that end of the ground.

Saw a BBC news report from hillsborough, and they've just seated the area.

Noticed that. I presume it's been kept that way in tribute. 96 white seats at the front too.

1 hour ago, sbcmfc said:

 The disaster itself wasn't caused by any malice, more inaction, incompetence, poor planning.... and an element of bad luck (or was it more running out of luck, as it was luck that it hadn't happened before?)

It certainly had been fortunate something similar hadn't happened in England when you saw the way they penned fans in. Sadly a consequence of the hooliganism culture of the time.

As bad as it could be up here, at least we never went down the route of treating football supporters like livestock...

[neilser]

 

I saw this in the Telegraph

 

Quote

 

Did Freemasons play a part in cover-up?

In a report that will be published once all potential criminal proceedings have concluded, officials will also conclude whether Freemasons influenced police decision-making at the time.

Mr Duckenfield told the fresh inquests he had been a Freemason since 1975 and became head of his local lodge – a Worshipful Master – the year following the 1989 disaster.

He said he did not know if his promotion within South Yorkshire Police in the weeks before the tragedy was influenced by his membership of the so-called "secret society" but added: “I would hope not.”

His predecessor Brian Mole, now deceased, had also been a member of the same lodge, jurors were told.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/27/hillsborough-the-remaining-questions/

How the feck could he say the bit about hoping that he wasn't promoted due to being a mason with a straight face?

Oi Dave fancy joining the masons?

Yes,  but only on the strict understanding it won't do anything to influence my career  prospects...

 

Quote

Edited April 27, 2016 by neilser

[phart]

56 minutes ago, MacWalka said:

I can't believe that this thread about such a monumental decision in British legal history has degraded into talking about Wings Over Scotland.........Actually I can. This place is bizarre at times.

Politics of personality. Some folk view the world through a single angle. they can't see the other angles.

Ah good old inert Freemasonry eh? Anyway I don't believe this is a conspiracy, someone would have blown the whistle , you can't cover this up for this long... or so i was told when i broached this over the years.

 

[MacWalka]

30 minutes ago, thplinth said:

There seems to be a few strands to it.

1. The behaviour of the fans that precipitated the disaster. (The police opened the gate as they were concerned about a crush at the turnstiles. This then led to far more serious crush inside.)
2. The incompetence of the police making the decisions at the ground that day when faced with the problems.
3. The behaviour of senior police after the disaster had happened.

2 & 3 have been pretty much established with 3. especially being astonishing (at how dishonest and criminal they were in their efforts to escape their incompetence that day). It is a window into what the police are capable of. Very ugly indeed.

As for 1. - is it right to assign 0% of the blame that day on the fans outside trying to get in. I might mostly blame the police but can I say the fans trying to get in are 100% innocent. I think it is a fair question if the police are facing criminal charges.

In terms of 1, there are a few things to consider.

There were massive delays due to roadworks on the road from Liverpool that day so a lot of buses arrived later than normal. This resulted in a large number of supporters arriving late and will obviously rush from the bus to the stadium.

The layout of the road to the ground and into the turnstyles is effectively a funnel so at the start of the road people would have enough space but the closer to the ground and into the ground itself, the space per person gets narrower which results in a crush.

In a crowd, the only people that can control what the do are the people at the back. Anyone in the crowd itself gets carried along. The people at the back will have absolutely no idea what's going on ahead of them. The rate of people arriving meant that as soon as someone was at the back of the crowd, more people came in behind them.

So imagine you are walking up to the back of the crowd pretty quickly as your bus was late and you want to reach the stadium in time for kick-off. You reach the back of the crowd, realise it's a bit packed and slow down as you reach the person in front. By the time you've slowed and reached the person in front, there are people behind you that have reached you and you're now part of the crowd being swept along.

This will happen in just about every heavy crowd without crowd control measures. I've been in crowds where I've been swept along at gigs, festivals, football and there has been times where I've struggled for breath. In these cases, people didn't die because there weren't massive fences at the front to crush them and they weren't locked into an area without escape.

Every venue and event including football stadia, gig venues, street festivals, cinemas etc. have measures in place to prevent issues from heavy crowding. Hillsborough also had measures in place, on that day, they weren't enacted.

The idea that people in a crowd can be blamed for behaving exactly how every crowd in the world behaves is frankly ridiculous. There were no more people in the stadium than tickets and there was no evidence of excessive drunkenness.

[phart]

47 minutes ago, thplinth said:

There seems to be a few strands to it.

1. The behaviour of the fans that precipitated the disaster. (The police opened the gate as they were concerned about a crush at the turnstiles. This then led to far more serious crush inside.)
2. The incompetence of the police making the decisions at the ground that day when faced with the problems.
3. The behaviour of senior police after the disaster had happened.

2 & 3 have been pretty much established with 3. especially being astonishing (at how dishonest and criminal they were in their efforts to escape their incompetence that day). It is a window into what the police are capable of. Very ugly indeed.

As for 1. - is it right to assign 0% of the blame that day on the fans outside trying to get in. I might mostly blame the police but can I say the fans trying to get in are 100% innocent. I think it is a fair question if the police are facing criminal charges.

Isn't that what the inquiry was about establishing what was fair or not? Also it was like 19 questions not 3 strands. the context of the case. Your context might not have been considered or covered within the report.

[Rossy]

How can there be any thing to consider ?

The jury were there for 2 years and studied the evidence together for months before coming to a unanimous verdict that no blame could be attributed to the fans.

I trust their judgement.

[phart]

Does anyone know where Duckenfield was between 11 and 1? Has that been disclosed, tried to find it but so much information coming out hard to sort it.

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Toepoke said:

Noticed that. I presume it's been kept that way in tribute. 96 white seats at the front too.

It certainly had been fortunate something similar hadn't happened in England when you saw the way they penned fans in. Sadly a consequence of the hooliganism culture of the time.

As bad as it could be up here, at least we never went down the route of treating football supporters like livestock...

I get really angry to this day when people invade the pitch as they should remember why the fences went up in the first place and why they came down. 

[MacWalka]

9 minutes ago, phart said:

Does anyone know where Duckenfield was between 11 and 1? Has that been disclosed, tried to find it but so much information coming out hard to sort it.

I couldn't find anything. There's a Guardian article that has a very good summary of events, who did what and when but there does seem to be this big black hole around him during that time. His predecessor used to check traffic flow and walk the roads around the stadium during that window before a game.

[RenfrewBlue]

1 hour ago, MacWalka said:

In terms of 1, there are a few things to consider.

There were massive delays due to roadworks on the road from Liverpool that day so a lot of buses arrived later than normal. This resulted in a large number of supporters arriving late and will obviously rush from the bus to the stadium.

The layout of the road to the ground and into the turnstyles is effectively a funnel so at the start of the road people would have enough space but the closer to the ground and into the ground itself, the space per person gets narrower which results in a crush.

In a crowd, the only people that can control what the do are the people at the back. Anyone in the crowd itself gets carried along. The people at the back will have absolutely no idea what's going on ahead of them. The rate of people arriving meant that as soon as someone was at the back of the crowd, more people came in behind them.

So imagine you are walking up to the back of the crowd pretty quickly as your bus was late and you want to reach the stadium in time for kick-off. You reach the back of the crowd, realise it's a bit packed and slow down as you reach the person in front. By the time you've slowed and reached the person in front, there are people behind you that have reached you and you're now part of the crowd being swept along.

This will happen in just about every heavy crowd without crowd control measures. I've been in crowds where I've been swept along at gigs, festivals, football and there has been times where I've struggled for breath. In these cases, people didn't die because there weren't massive fences at the front to crush them and they weren't locked into an area without escape.

Every venue and event including football stadia, gig venues, street festivals, cinemas etc. have measures in place to prevent issues from heavy crowding. Hillsborough also had measures in place, on that day, they weren't enacted.

The idea that people in a crowd can be blamed for behaving exactly how every crowd in the world behaves is frankly ridiculous. There were no more people in the stadium than tickets and there was no evidence of excessive drunkenness.

Excellent post. 

Too many people who obviously haven't been in big crowds seem to think that folk have any real control over what's happening. 

The uninformed pish that has been spouted by idiots like Wings helps the smokescreen that the Police tried to put up. 

The police are to blame for the lack of crowd control and their inability to respond to events as they happened. The crowd were not misbehaving. They were behaving as they were asked to do by the external influences.

[RenfrewBlue]

4 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

You have to read the whole blog which he wrote in 2012

It is this that he is being told to hang his head in shame for

http://wosland.podgamer.com/no-justice-for-the-96/

 

Do you think this makes his comments any better?

He's havering pish and anyone who's actually been in a crowd like that knows it. Wings language in this is poor and by his choice of words attempts to paint the fans at the game in a deliberately bad way. 

The man's a clown and needs wind his overblown neck in. He's an embarrassment to journalism in the same way as Kelvin Mckenzie with this type of attitude. 

[AberdeenAngus]

Read this brilliant article

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw

[Ally Bongo]

2 hours ago, RenfrewBlue said:

Do you think this makes his comments any better?

He's havering pish and anyone who's actually been in a crowd like that knows it. Wings language in this is poor and by his choice of words attempts to paint the fans at the game in a deliberately bad way. 

The man's a clown and needs wind his overblown neck in. He's an embarrassment to journalism in the same way as Kelvin Mckenzie with this type of attitude. 

Nope - and i agree apart from the Kelvin McKenzie comparison