Ken Livingstone

[aaid]

Owen Jones posted this on Facebook earlier. I think it's a pretty good explanation of why Livingstone should be suspended. 

Quote

I'm being attacked in some quarters for supporting the decision of the Labour leadership to suspend Ken Livingstone. I'm a bit confused as to why they're attacking me, rather than the Labour leadership who took this decision, but there we have it.

Firstly, some are suggesting that I'm conflating anti-Semitism and opposition to the occupation of Palestine. This is so beyond satire, I'm not sure what to say. Here's what I said to millions of people during the 2012 Gaza war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTifhm1qDPw

Here's one of the many articles I wrote about Gaza: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/09/israel-renewed-hamas-attack-bbc-balance-palestinian

Those people somehow trying to portray me as somebody who wants to shut down criticisms of the occupation, or even as a stooge of the Israeli government, are so divorced from reality it is impossible to know where to begin.

Why do I support the leadership's decision to suspend Ken Livingstone? He said it was "over the top" to think of racism and anti-Semitism "as exactly the same thing". This alone is appalling. Anti-Semitism is racism, the end. He then said Naz Shah's comments - which she has issued a commendable apology for - including "the Jews are rallying" - were not anti-Semitic. He said Hitler was supporting Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". *Before* "he went mad", i.e. after he wrote Mein Kampf (which made clear his genocidal intentions) in the 1920s? He said "a real anti-Semite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or in Stoke Newington."

Now I know many of you are saying "there's a plot against the Labour leadership!" And yes, there absolutely is. So the one thing you do not do is give those plotting ammunition to attack you with. That is exactly what Ken Livingstone did yesterday. Obviously political opponents are going to seize on terrible screw ups as ammunition. That doesn't mean doubling down and defending the terrible screw ups and pretending they are anything else.

Ken Livingstone had a brilliant record as London Mayor, and for standing up against racism. It is beyond tragic to watch him trashing his reputation like this - and for providing so much material for opponents of Labour. Why tour the TV and radio studios yesterday to make these sort of comments? What good is supposed to come of it?

I've had some people calling me a careerist, a sell-out, an Establishment stooge. It is a novel experience, I will be honest. But I only ever say what I believe, even if that causes people to get upset. There is no point me doing anything other than being straightforward and honest about my convictions. I want the left to succeed, to win people over, and to change society. That is it. There are some who don't seem interested in winning people over, who somehow think that doubling down and defending comments which are wrong on their own terms as well as self-destructive for the left are helpful. Do people think Jon Lansman, the Chair of Momentum and key figure in Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign, who has called for Ken Livingstone to stop talking about these issues and leave politics as part of a right-wing plot?

As for me, I'll take on both racism and the downplaying of racism wherever I see it - and that's all there is to it.

 

[PapofGlencoe]

the jewish relationship with Scotland must be very minimal?  I genuinely don't think i've ever met one and i meet new people regularly.  or heard any anti-semitic comments either.  it's something i hear about but never actually witnessed.

I don't think forceably removing Jews to either Israel or anywhere else can be classed as Zionism, if truth be told.

Of course, being no fan of the state of Israel is not anti-semetic.  Although a complex problem, everything i've read ont eh matter suggests the establishment in Israel behave deplorably.

[Only One Stop]

18 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

the jewish relationship with Scotland must be very minimal?  I genuinely don't think i've ever met one and i meet new people regularly.  or heard any anti-semitic comments either.  it's something i hear about but never actually witnessed.

I don't think forceably removing Jews to either Israel or anywhere else can be classed as Zionism, if truth be told.

Of course, being no fan of the state of Israel is not anti-semetic.  Although a complex problem, everything i've read ont eh matter suggests the establishment in Israel behave deplorably.

That's the bizarre problem though, my understanding is that the Zionist movement is all about a wholly Jewish homeland in Israel. Perhaps it has been interpreted that Hitler supported this as it would get rid of what he felt was the Jewish enemy from Germany and Europe if they went to what has become the State of Israel. 

Some ultra  Orthodox Jews are hugely anti Zionist as they believe that only the return of Jesus can create Zion. 

The narrative has built up that any criticism of the actions of The Israeli State is anti Semitic when it clearly isn't in many instances. 

Alex Salmond on QT was quite clear last night that he felt the suspension of Livingstone from Labour Party was correct but had some sympathy for the Asian MP who was suspended despite her full apology. He did say that he is on Board of Holocaust committee so I wonder how they will view his comments. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Only One Stop
Typo

[ErsatzThistle]

23 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

the jewish relationship with Scotland must be very minimal?  I genuinely don't think i've ever met one and i meet new people regularly.  or heard any anti-semitic comments either.  it's something i hear about but never actually witnessed.

The Jewish people may not populate Scotland in large numbers but they have made a significant contribution to our history and way of life. They are a welcome part of our nation. 

Noteworthy Scots Jews include - Muriel Spark, Ivor Cutler, Malcolm Rifkind, Mark Knopler, Kevin MacDonald (the film director), Jeremy Isaacs, George Sassoon, Jerry Sadowitz and David Daiches.

Whilst Garnethill Synagogue in Glasgow is a beautiful building, both inside and outside. 

A small number of Scots Jews died in the Holocaust too. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by ErsatzThistle

[PapofGlencoe]

12 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

The Jewish people may not populate Scotland in large numbers but they have made a significant contribution to our history and way of life. They are a welcome part of our nation. 

Noteworthy Scots Jews include - Muriel Spark, Ivor Cutler, Malcolm Rifkind, Mark Knopler, Kevin MacDonald (the film director), Jeremy Isaacs, George Sassoon and David Daiches.

A small number of Scots Jews died in the Holocaust too. 

yeah, absolutely.  Very welcome, no doubts.  

I was just looking at it now.  Apparently, Scotland is one of the few European countries to never have purged Jews at any time in history.  Although, it may be more to do with the fact we've never really had any.  Most that have come, have come post 18th century from the south.  Even the ones mentioned above are largely from very recent arrivals, usually English parents.  Quite interesting.  Hadn't really thought about it before.  Anti-Semitism is so bizarre; like a relic from medieval period...like people still believe in witches or something.  It's completely mental.

[aaid]

Majority of Jews in Scotland today would be descendants of 19th Century immigrants from Eastern Europe who would have fled the pogroms in Tsarist Russia.  I think a large number, possibly a majority, were from Lithuania.   The Gorbals in particular had a large community in the early 20th century.  Growing Up in the Gorbals by Ralph Glasser is a really good account of that time.  Some tales about boatloads of immigrants being offloaded in Dundee and being told it was New York.  No idea how true that is but it's a good story none the less  

The largest community these days is in Newton Mearns and surrounding areas and would largely be the descendants of these immigrants. 

Its a small community but I'd say in terms of its contribution to Scotland, it's punched well above its weight. 

 

[Third Lanark]

Check out Noam Chomsky on you Tube; a Jew and an anti-zionist; wonder what John Mann thinks of him? There's no limit to the extent of the lying these right wing Blairites are capable of.

[phart]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

Owen Jones posted this on Facebook earlier. I think it's a pretty good explanation of why Livingstone should be suspended. 

 

Jesus he withered on in that piece, here is the actual substance. I've also put the transcript. in as well. Anti-semitism is the same as racism. Anti-Zionism isn't. I can see the problem with these assertions, but i guess saying Hitler garnered the most attention. Loads of people try and conflate Anti-Zionism and Anti-semitism to shut down debate of Zionist policies.

" Why do I support the leadership's decision to suspend Ken Livingstone? He said it was "over the top" to think of racism and anti-Semitism "as exactly the same thing". This alone is appalling. Anti-Semitism is racism, the end. He then said Naz Shah's comments - which she has issued a commendable apology for - including "the Jews are rallying" - were not anti-Semitic. He said Hitler was supporting Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". *Before* "he went mad", i.e. after he wrote Mein Kampf (which made clear his genocidal intentions) in the 1920s? He said "a real anti-Semite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or in Stoke Newington."

Feltz: What do you think over the top means? Over the top of what?

 

Livingstone: Basically to think of antisemitism and racism as exactly the same thing. And criticising the government of South Africa, which is pretty unpleasant and corrupt, doesn’t make me a racist, and it doesn’t make me antisemitic when I criticise the brutal mistreatment by the Israeli government.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2016 by phart

[Hertsscot]

5 hours ago, Only One Stop said:

Some ultra  Orthodox Jews are hugely anti Zionist as they believe that only the return of Jesus can create Zion. 

You're absolutely right about the attitude of some ultra Orthodox Jews to the secular state of Israel.  Though they are waiting for 'the Messiah' rather than Jesus as they don't think he's the right applicant.

 

[Hertsscot]

4 hours ago, phart said:

Livingstone: Basically to think of antisemitism and racism as exactly the same thing. And criticising the government of South Africa, which is pretty unpleasant and corrupt, doesn’t make me a racist, and it doesn’t make me antisemitic when I criticise the brutal mistreatment by the Israeli government.

Bit strange that Livingstone says its over the top to equate antisemitism with racism.  Surely he'd have been on much firmer ground if he'd said anti Zionism should not be equated with racism. 

[phart]

12 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Bit strange that Livingstone says its over the top to equate antisemitism with racism.  Surely he'd have been on much firmer ground if he'd said anti Zionism should not be equated with racism. 

Yeah that's what i thought as well, the rest of his spiel would work if he had said anti-zionist, it makes more sense that way.. Cause Anti-semitism is racism, just a more specific definition, same thing though.

He did say anti-semitism though. He might have meant Anti-Zionist, but he never said it.

 

[Eisegerwind]

I'm a bit of an anti-semite to be honest, however I'm also a bit of an anti-proddy,anti-christian, anti-hindu,anti-Sikh,anti-    bhuddist, anti-catholic, anti-shia, anti-sunni, anti-god fairy, anti-Mormon etc. Doesn't make me a bad person.

[Eisegerwind]

What is it with the pigtails and hats and wigs and shit,direct orders from god or what. At least the Christians have managed to reduce it to women wearing hats at weddings.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Eisegerwind

[Ally Bongo]

40 minutes ago, Eisegerwind said:

What is it with the pigtails and hats and wigs and shit,direct orders from god or what. At least the Christians have managed to reduce it to women wearing hats at weddings.

[Eisegerwind]

Would've deleted those posts,cos I was just thinking out loud and not that relevant.

Point is, just fed up of  people (Ken) not being able to criticise religions/religious states without being regarded as some sort of racist. It's the religious followers that are the racists. Yes, I know I've confalgrated race and religion that's because they are.

[Topcat]

51 minutes ago, Eisegerwind said:

I'm a bit of an anti-semite to be honest, however I'm also a bit of an anti-proddy,anti-christian, anti-hindu,anti-Sikh,anti-    bhuddist, anti-catholic, anti-shia, anti-sunni, anti-god fairy, anti-Mormon etc. Doesn't make me a bad person.

if my memory of school RE is correct - and we were taught a right crock of shit at school in the 80's - then the Semites were a nomadic bunch of different peoples from different countries and different religions - including Christians and Muslims so the term you apply to yourself covers most of the anti's above except fairies and mormons.

I fukkin cringe every single time I hear someone on TV spouting forth about anti-semitism - when was the terminology hijacked solely by Jewish folk who have got their collective tits in a fankle? 

[Orraloon]

In my experience a lot of this stuff eventually boils down to arguments about the definition of words.

[Orraloon]

Why does a group of people who constitute such a small proportion of the population seem to have such a big influence? I hear nasty things said about Polish people on a regular basis. There are far more Polish folk in the UK than Jewish folk, but anti Polish sentiment never gets this amount of media coverage.

 

[Ally Bongo]

13 minutes ago, Topcat said:

if my memory of school RE is correct - and we were taught a right crock of shit at school in the 80's - then the Semites were a nomadic bunch of different peoples from different countries and different religions - including Christians and Muslims so the term you apply to yourself covers most of the anti's above except fairies and mormons.

I fukkin cringe every single time I hear someone on TV spouting forth about anti-semitism - when was the terminology hijacked solely by Jewish folk who have got their collective tits in a fankle? 

About 3.15 in

 

[Eisegerwind]

15 minutes ago, Topcat said:

if my memory of school RE is correct - and we were taught a right crock of shit at school in the 80's - then the Semites were a nomadic bunch of different peoples from different countries and different religions - including Christians and Muslims so the term you apply to yourself covers most of the anti's above except fairies and mormons.

I fukkin cringe every single time I hear someone on TV spouting forth about anti-semitism - when was the terminology hijacked solely by Jewish folk who have got their collective tits in a fankle? 

Semantics,just wrote anti-semite as that seemed to be the popular term, anti-jewish if that makes it clearer, please take that in the context of my previous post. Don't want to get be a multi millionaire world wide celeb and have that quoted in isolation.

[Ally Bongo]

 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Ally Bongo

[Ally Bongo]

 

[Topcat]

11 minutes ago, Eisegerwind said:

Semantics,just wrote anti-semite as that seemed to be the popular term, anti-jewish if that makes it clearer, please take that in the context of my previous post. Don't want to get be a multi millionaire world wide celeb and have that quoted in isolation.

wasn't being pedantic bud or critical of you so apologies if you felt your toes stepped on  - heard the phrase a couple of dozen times on TV today and it annoys me as it's equally applicable to a whole host of races/peoples who are not Jewish - but the phrase is trotted out for the single entity whose country/foreign policy/politicians/army/land grab policies which simply cannot be criticised for fear of being labelled a bigot. 

[Eisegerwind]

13 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Why does a group of people who constitute such a small proportion of the population seem to have such a big influence? I hear nasty things said about Polish people on a regular basis. There are far more Polish folk in the UK than Jewish folk, but anti Polish sentiment never gets this amount of media coverage.

 

Well some cospir,.. people would have you believe that there is all sorts of fantastic stuff going on. Basically it's a tight knit community like other tight knit communities,who are tight knit for various reasons. Usually the knitting rips when people get to know and trust each other, however, religious leaders have their own vested interests to separate,pervert, persecute and divide people.

[Ally Bongo]

33 minutes ago, Topcat said:

I fukkin cringe every single time I hear someone on TV spouting forth about anti-semitism - when was the terminology hijacked solely by Jewish folk who have got their collective tits in a fankle? 

*shakes head*