Ken Livingstone

[Topcat]

10 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

*shakes head*

can you explain in simple terms (without posting tlengthy videos showing the utter sh*te espoused by Hitchins) what you disagree regarding my 2 previous posts

[Ally Bongo]

28 minutes ago, Topcat said:

can you explain in simple terms (without posting tlengthy videos showing the utter sh*te espoused by Hitchins) what you disagree regarding my 2 previous posts

Sure - maybe you'd like to expand on the "Utter shite espoused by Hitchens" ?

1 hour ago, Topcat said:

if my memory of school RE is correct - and we were taught a right crock of shit at school in the 80's - then the Semites were a nomadic bunch of different peoples from different countries and different religions - including Christians and Muslims so the term you apply to yourself covers most of the anti's above except fairies and mormons.

I fukkin cringe every single time I hear someone on TV spouting forth about anti-semitism - when was the terminology hijacked solely by Jewish folk who have got their collective tits in a fankle? 

47 minutes ago, Topcat said:

wasn't being pedantic bud or critical of you so apologies if you felt your toes stepped on  - heard the phrase a couple of dozen times on TV today and it annoys me as it's equally applicable to a whole host of races/peoples who are not Jewish - but the phrase is trotted out for the single entity whose country/foreign policy/politicians/army/land grab policies which simply cannot be criticised for fear of being labelled a bigot. 

The root word Semite gives the false impression that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people. However, the compound word antisemite was popularized in Germany in 1879^[6] as a scientific-sounding term for Judenhass (Jew-hatred),^[7][8][9] and that has been its common use since then.^[10]

With regards the bit in bold - it's not - or at least shouldnt be

Edited April 29, 2016 by Ally Bongo

[Topcat]

my my are you quoting wikipedia as a reliable source of information 

[Eisegerwind]

1 hour ago, Topcat said:

if my memory of school RE is correct - and we were taught a right crock of shit at school in the 80's - then the Semites were a nomadic bunch of different peoples from different countries and different religions - including Christians and Muslims so the term you apply to yourself covers most of the anti's above except fairies and mormons.

I fukkin cringe every single time I hear someone on TV spouting forth about anti-semitism - when was the terminology hijacked solely by Jewish folk who have got their collective tits in a fankle? 

Just read that again ' so the term you apply to yourself ' wasn't aware I had applied a term to myself.

However again a lot of this is just semantics(I really must check exactly what that means),I know what I mean, you know what I mean. Yeah checked 'semantics' usually just used as an excuse to skirt around and confuse issues.

[Ally Bongo]

18 minutes ago, Topcat said:

my my are you quoting wikipedia as a reliable source of information 

Seriously ?

That all you have got to add ?

I thought that would be easier than quoting every dictionary definition

Edited April 29, 2016 by Ally Bongo

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

In my experience a lot of this stuff eventually boils down to arguments about the definition of words.

Like I said earlier.

[G-Man]

2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Like I said earlier.

Well stop fecking repeating yourself. 

Forget Hitchens (I once had a ciggie with him outside a restaurant in London and he was very nice and very funny.)  and listen to the real voice of today. "And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate."

 

[ThistleWhistle]

14 hours ago, phart said:

Jesus he withered on in ece, here is thbstance. I've also put the transcript. in as well. Amitism issm. Anti-Zionism isn't. I can see the problem with these assertions, but i guess saying Hitler garnered the most attention. Loads of people try and conflate Anti-Zionism and Anti-semitism to shut down debate of Zionist policies.

" Why do I support the leadership's decision to suspend Ken Livingstone? He said it was "over the top" to think of racism and anti-Semitism "as exactly the same thing". This alone is appalling. Anti-Semitism is racism, the end. He then said Naz Shah's comments - which she has issued a commendable apology for - including "the Jews are rallying" - were not anti-Semitic. He said Hitler was supporting Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". *Before* "he went mad", i.e. after he wrote Mein Kampf (which made clear his genocidal intentions) in the 1920s? He said "a real anti-Semite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or in Stoke Newington."

Feltz: What do you think over the top means? Over the top of what?

 

Livingstone: Basically to think of antisemitism and racism as exactly the same thing. And criticising the government of South Africa, which is pretty unpleasant and corrupt, doesn’t make me a racist, and it doesn’t make me antisemitic when I criticise the brutal mistreatment by the Israeli government.

 

 

I think he is wrong about Mein Kampf too. There's no way he could have climbed to the top if his  manifesto from the off stated he wanted to cull 6 million jews and 5 million others. Only read bits (christ it is badly written hate filled pish) but remember seeing a program on History about it and a couple of articles after in which all stated it was deeply anti-semitic but never stipulated he intended to kill them off. At that point the plan was shipping them to Madagascar. They actually looked at doing this with Polish Jews but postponed it after losing the Battle of Britain. Then there were speeches in October and December 1940 where the Final Solution has then been decided. 

Off topic but something I found interesting was after school and basic media exposure I thought Germany was totally Nazi. In the 32 elections they got 30 and 37%. In 1933, even with brown coats kicking the shit out of folk, this dropped to 33%. Milliband got 30% in our last election as comparison and he iscridiculed for being unpopular. 

 

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I think he is wrong about Mein Kampf too. There's no way he could have climbed to the top if his  manifesto from the off stated he wanted to cull 6 million jews and 5 million others. Only read bits (christ it is badly written hate filled pish) but remember seeing a program on History about it and a couple of articles after in which all stated it was deeply anti-semitic but never stipulated he intended to kill them off. At that point the plan was shipping them to Madagascar. They actually looked at doing this with Polish Jews but postponed it after losing the Battle of Britain. Then there were speeches in October and December 1940 where the Final Solution has then been decided. 

Off topic but something I found interesting was after school and basic media exposure I thought Germany was totally Nazi. In the 32 elections they got 30 and 37%. In 1933, even with brown coats kicking the shit out of folk, this dropped to 33%. Milliband got 30% in our last election as comparison and he iscridiculed for being unpopular. 

 

Did he not win a couple plebiscites as well? I am fairly sure that none of the plebiscites mentioned anything about murdering millions of Jews though.

[Ally Bongo]

http://www.labourteachers.org.uk/historical-truth-johndavidblake/

 

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

http://www.labourteachers.org.uk/historical-truth-johndavidblake/

 

Grow your hair, there's definitely a resemblance.

[Ally Bongo]

38 minutes ago, aaid said:

Grow your hair, there's definitely a resemblance.

If only i could

 

[Ally Bongo]

13 hours ago, G-Man said:

Well stop fecking repeating yourself. 

Forget Hitchens (I once had a ciggie with him outside a restaurant in London and he was very nice and very funny.)  and listen to the real voice of today. "And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate."

 

Lucky girl

[Topcat]

19 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

Just read that again ' so the term you apply to yourself ' wasn't aware I had applied a term to myself.

" I'm a bit of an anti-semite to be honest  "

[Topcat]

19 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Seriously ?

That all you have got to add ?

I thought that would be easier than quoting every dictionary definition

I asked you to explain - but you obviously don't have an opinion so have to lift quotes and video from wherever (Hitchins/wikipedia etc) - do you actually have any well formed opinion? 

[Ally Bongo]

58 minutes ago, Topcat said:

I asked you to explain - but you obviously don't have an opinion so have to lift quotes and video from wherever (Hitchins/wikipedia etc) - do you actually have any well formed opinion? 

Stop digging a hole for yourself mate

You stated that it irks you that antisemitism is used purely to relate to people of Jewish faith as a semite rather than Jews, Arabs Babylonians etc

As i said - every dictionary definition of the word "antisemitism" is hatred of Jewish people

You may wish to ignore that and also the information of Wikipedia which i posted to help you out however they arent making it up and here is why.

The actual words themselves - Anti-Semitic and anti-Semite first originated in the English language in 1881 and are in reference to German literature regarding .....wait for it ......hatred of Jews.

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Ally Bongo

[phart]

The article is confused. Livingstone never said Hitler was a Zionist, never denied the holocaust. Never went on about conspiracy theories, never mentioned Germany as being attacked, or tried to not mention genocide etc,

Jones had a much better and clearer point about saying anti-semitism is not racism. (it is).

this half-wit invokes a dozen straw-men argues against them, cheap rhetorical tricks " anyone with a smattering of historical learning and even a shred of integrity can see these... " invokes a perverted truth without telling us what the truth is or how it's perverted etc.

Check this for a mofo sentence rofl

" Toxic inattentiveness to the rules of the historical discipline is the stock-in-trade of the grievance-mongers of the Far Left and the Far Right, the breeding ground for the conspiracy theories that frame their understanding of how change is achieved (as well as explaining why, despite them having seen the truth, they are singly unsuccessful in changing much themselves). "

Then just use a cheap bit of negative association " Mein Kampf, for example, is full of it"

The fact that Ken mentioning Hitler has on the main drawn more focus than him saying Anti-semitism isn't racism, let's you know for some it's more a pavlovian response.

 

[phart]

From the Encyclopedia Britannica

http://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism

[Orraloon]

I'm not going to repeat myself again in case I get another telling aff.

[Only One Stop]

Ask yourself the following questions.

Did Livingstone say anything that was anti Semitic or anti Zionist?

Was what he said untrue?

why is this a big story in the media?

 

[exile]

Coming into this debate late, but it seems to me some ingenious b***ard has got the nation talking about "antisemitism and labour" in the same sentence. And the BBC and media are lapping it up and repeating "antisemitism" and "labour" and magnifying it and making it the issue of the day. And no one is talking about Sadiq Khan's housing and transport policies. Only Labour and going to suffer and Zac Goldsmith will be the beneficiary. Who'd have thunk it?

[Mox]

11 minutes ago, exile said:

Coming into this debate late, but it seems to me some ingenious b***ard has got the nation talking about "antisemitism and labour" in the same sentence. And the BBC and media are lapping it up and repeating "antisemitism" and "labour" and magnifying it and making it the issue of the day. And no one is talking about Sadiq Khan's housing and transport policies. Only Labour and going to suffer and Zac Goldsmith will be the beneficiary. Who'd have thunk it?

I wanted to throw the remote at the TV this morning during Andrew Marr's interview with Diane Abbott. As regards Goldsmith, he hasn't got a chance in hell of winning on Thursday.

[Ally Bongo]

[exile]

9 minutes ago, Mox said:

I wanted to throw the remote at the TV this morning during Andrew Marr's interview with Diane Abbott. As regards Goldsmith, he hasn't got a chance in hell of winning on Thursday.

Maybe too little too late to save Zac, but the fact they play the card is telling (it removes any hope of Khan using a positive 'victory for diversity' angle as a pre-election asset) - though it is presumably as much about getting at Corbyn (more so when Labour people themselves pile in).

I haven't been following the whole debate, but I just notice the way this whole thing is completely a set-up and the willing media follow. The BBC for example are of course not biased for pursuing the anti-semitic/Labour line, they are only "reflecting the debate of the day". My guess is that it's more unfair and unrepresentative of Labour parry generally and its ordinary members, than it is to call independence supporters narrow minded nationalists or UKIPpers xenophobic bigots.

I wonder what ordinary Labour people think, who may now find themselves tainted with being in party associated with anti-semitism, who didn't mind seeing "separation" associated with ethnic nationalism, Balkan strife or worse, or SNP with totalitarianism, and never saw any problem with BBC playing along. 

[Mox]

23 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

That is an extraordinary headline.