Scottish youth football

[Stuart87]

Any thoughts on this article?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36523042

[jw22]

Interesting article. I remember all the talk around 2002 after failing to qualify and the SFA was supposed to be investing in more coaches etc though nothing has seemed to change since then. I believe that our young players have the same potential as any other country but seem to struggle to bring them on. We hear of them at 17 to 19 then they fail to live up to the potential they showed. If you look at what Spain and Germany did it really seems to be a case of money money money. Maybe a way forwards would be for all youngsters to be at a national academy until they are 18, where they can all be trained by the best coaches we can get, maybe loaned out to clubs during that for a few months at a time to gain some experience as long as they are playing in the first team. They then could be sold on and the money reinvested in the academy. Probably impossible to do but a fresh approach is definitely needed as the current system just isn`t fit for purpose.

[Mox]

Scot Gemmill: "Everybody's keen to learn from [Iceland], but our under-17s beat Iceland three or four months ago. Liam Burt scored the winning goal and he made his debut for Rangers recently. There are good players coming through."

it, we beat them at under 17 level and people always go on about Iceland, so it's all fine.

[JECK]

This has been talked about since the 90s at least. Feels like forever and nothing changes.

Interesting point I've never considered before is what's the stats with regards to how much is invested and quality of player produced in each country. Maybe we simply can't afford to or don't invest enough and that's reflected in where we are? You get what you pay for kind of thing.

[bossman4]

3 hours ago, JECK said:

This has been talked about since the 90s at least. Feels like forever and nothing changes.

Interesting point I've never considered before is what's the stats with regards to how much is invested and quality of player produced in each country. Maybe we simply can't afford to or don't invest enough and that's reflected in where we are? You get what you pay for kind of thing.

The performance schools were introduced 3 years ago, the first crop of them are hitting 16 now. I think we have that right but it will take a few more years to really work, but we're a but impatient in this country. The issue is when you hit the clubs and the pro youth systems. There are just to many lads at these age groups, some clubs have about 200 kids in some cases. 

There is also the issue that the U20 league isn't working. If you go to any other European Country (Portugal, Spain) they have B teams in the lower leagues. Gauld at Sporting has spent two years in that and has now been promoted to their first team squad. Do we look at doing that but their seems a really negative attitude to that in Scotland and the UK in general. Do we introduce the old reserve system from years ago so young lads are playing more regularly against senior players?

[er yir macaroon]

Scott Gemmill failed to mention the u17 Euro finals where we barely registered a shot at goal.

[ScotsRik]

You could go mad trying to figure out what needs to be done and where things went wrong.

What are we not doing now that we did in the 50's and 60's? I don't think a lot of money was ploughed into coaching then but we did have raw materials that we don't seem to have now. Is it a symptom of the modern age where you don't see kids having 'kickabouts' in the street anymore?? Surely we aren't the only country with this problem? Rather that professional coaching, manageable numbers, excellent facilities....we maybe need to provide areas in as many neighbourhoods as possible that provide for over-subscribed 'matches', poor surfaces, goals the size of garden gates etc!! Just get kids playing football again. Once coaches have an intake of youngsters that have acquired the skills, then we could tackle the problem we seem to have of mentality, attitude, maturity when compared against other countries. Marc Wotte ended up slagging off our youngsters as being more interested in burgers and Buckfast - a line fed to him if ever there was one! He was thanked for his services of course. Interesting that Germany doubled the coaches budget after a failed tournament. I wonder who and how many are making these decisions in Germany? Here - we create a job for a single guy who must be good cos he's Dutch!......and gave a top job to Gordon Smith (a personal gripe)....cos he 'knew fitba'.....oh and could talk well in front of the camera. It's an absolute joke. More people need to be involved with the bigger decisions and even at Scottish government level.

 

[er yir macaroon]

3 hours ago, ScotsRik said:

You could go mad trying to figure out what needs to be done and where things went wrong.

What are we not doing now that we did in the 50's and 60's? I don't think a lot of money was ploughed into coaching then but we did have raw materials that we don't seem to have now. Is it a symptom of the modern age where you don't see kids having 'kickabouts' in the street anymore?? Surely we aren't the only country with this problem? Rather that professional coaching, manageable numbers, excellent facilities....we maybe need to provide areas in as many neighbourhoods as possible that provide for over-subscribed 'matches', poor surfaces, goals the size of garden gates etc!! Just get kids playing football again. Once coaches have an intake of youngsters that have acquired the skills, then we could tackle the problem we seem to have of mentality, attitude, maturity when compared against other countries. Marc Wotte ended up slagging off our youngsters as being more interested in burgers and Buckfast - a line fed to him if ever there was one! He was thanked for his services of course. Interesting that Germany doubled the coaches budget after a failed tournament. I wonder who and how many are making these decisions in Germany? Here - we create a job for a single guy who must be good cos he's Dutch!......and gave a top job to Gordon Smith (a personal gripe)....cos he 'knew fitba'.....oh and could talk well in front of the camera. It's an absolute joke. More people need to be involved with the bigger decisions and even at Scottish government level.

 

Mark Wotte left because the old boy network wouldn't buy into his ideas.

[ScotsRik]

It seems he had completed the implementation of the new vision for a better Scotland in 2020 and 'moved on'.

In four years, we should be pretty good!!

[Baz]

He did have a point, I don't believe it was "fed" to him.

Our young players do have massive problems with drink, drugs and diet.

i can think of plenty of boys I grew up with who could've made it if they didn't hit the bevy at 14 years old.

look at guys like Riordan and O'connor who should've done much more, there's no doubt that booze/drugs destroyed any potential.

John Fleck was another one that you used to hear stories about being out in Glasgow in a Saturday night giving it the big I am whilst knocking back the bevy.

We need to address these issues as much as the coaching issue. 

Watching the euros, every team I have seen apart from Russia have been faster, stronger and sharper than any Scotland team I've seen recently.

 

 

 

[JECK]

Some may have heard Paw Broon on off the ball the day and due to the failure to qualify for euros was inevitably asked about our current plight. He cited lack of investment by the government and SFA to fund facilities and coaches as one of the main reasons as more money was given to performance arts/theatre etc. He said the government see football as wealthy (they see the big money transfers etc) so don't see the need for investment. Again, going back to my original point id love to know the figures compared to other countries with regard to government investment into youth and player development.

[Boynze]

14 minutes ago, JECK said:

Some may have heard Paw Broon on off the ball the day and due to the failure to qualify for euros was inevitably asked about our current plight. He cited lack of investment by the government and SFA to fund facilities and coaches as one of the main reasons as more money was given to performance arts/theatre etc. He said the government see football as wealthy (they see the big money transfers etc) so don't see the need for investment. Again, going back to my original point id love to know the figures compared to other countries with regard to government investment into youth and player development.

He also refused to believe that iceland might have better coaches than us.

a good manager for us but in my opinion he doesn't half talk rubbish,unfounded guff and has done for years.

[Boynze]

the problem with youth football in scotland is that there seems to be so many impediments to producing players that can compete on the international stage. our game at all levels, youths, seniors and the domestic game is in a steady, but clear and longstanding decline. the only area of our game that i can see is blossoming is the womens game and i hope that goes from strength to strength.

where do we start? is it facilities, the quality of coaching, the drink and fast food culture, the system we use to coach, simmer football, the league set-up, the clubs, the fans etc.

i wonder if we have ever carried out a proper academic study into our game, carried out by economists or the like, purely looking at facts and stats, not taking in account anecdotal opinions from paw broon and the like, and then compared the findings with with other countries. and i dont mean a think tank, i mean an external unbiased study. we also need to establish what countries should we compare with. everyone is going on about iceland now for obvious reasons but are they the best example? how do we measure oursevles, with countries of similar population, climate, gdp, nr of clubs or what. anyway my point is we dont actually know where we are going wrong, is the fall off rate from 16 year olds any less or more than belguim for example? do our youths spend more or less hours playing by the age of 19 or what. when is best to introduce competitive games on bigger pitches. will fan ownership of our clubs help or hinder the game. i suspect we dont know the answer to any of these questions. if this was a public health crisis there would be proper in depth studies to establish the underlying causes and stuff like that. i can imagine that a lot of the perceive wisdom  as to what we think is wrong, might not be the main factors and it might well be something else we had not considered. for example i have alway wondered why we don't seem to get many players from the highlands and islands, might that be an untapped resource?

the game desperately needs outside input, is there any profs on the board that could put together a research team that could volunteer for this sort if thing? and i think the government should put up some money for some research at least which i can't believe would cost a lot of money.

once we get the results we can taper our strategy to working on our strengths and weaknesses. and this should cover the domestic game too as we need to get the best out of the game, and i would include womens football too as i believe in that too. we need to try and find an inclusive system that finds a place for everyone at every level.

what we also have to establish is what do we actually want ? is it a particular style or type of player? we will never produce south american style players, so should we focus or northern european types, do we want physical players, skilful players, intelligent players or all of the above?

i think we need to use our failure for these euros as a watershed moment and take control of our game and shape and plan our future. one thing that can be agreed upon is that (relative) success is possible as other countries have proved. a healthy domestic and international football industry will be a great thing for our country and our self confidence.

bit of a ramble here but just trying to dump my brain on the the page. and i firmly believe that we need to study in breadth and depth where our game is going wrong.

 folk may agree or not, but ffs we've got to do something!

 

[ceudmilefailte]

3 hours ago, Boynze said:

 the only area of our game that i can see is blossoming is the womens game and i hope that goes from strength to strength.

 

 i would include womens football too as i believe in that too. we need to try and find an inclusive system that finds a place for everyone at every level.

 

 

The top womens teams have development teams playing in the lower leagues which helps find a place for everyone with potential, however I feel that young Scottish women like young Scottish men have a problem dedicating themselves to any physical sport. My daughter is a half decent player who puts a fair amount of effort in but still sees life the way most Scottish kids do, I can play and have fun, then concentrate on this later. The womens game might not be in the state the mens game is but unless Scottish mentality changes it will never be great.

As for the Highlands and Islands player pool, two of the schools there have produced two girls schools teams that have done very well in the Scottish Schools shield over the past few years  despite playing next to no competitive football, but are of no interest to Scottish unders selectors. The boys leagues because of the smaller catchment areas result in all the better players playing for the one team and learning next to nothing in uncompetitive games.Apart from all that there are next to no facilities and some of the coaching I have heard of and seen is appalling. It seems to just be an ego trip for bored middle aged men who never really made it as players but thought they should have and think they can do this by creating players in their own image!  Womens coaches don't seem to have that attitude which might explain the relative success of our women players

[JECK]

9 hours ago, Boynze said:

He also refused to believe that iceland might have better coaches than us.

a good manager for us but in my opinion he doesn't half talk rubbish,unfounded guff and has done for years.

So are you saying that what he said about lack of investment from the government was drivel? I think the issue with coaches is Iceland have more coaches per capita. I refuse to believe we do not have some good coaches in Scotland - there simply isn't enough of them to go round surely ?

[Baz]

I don't really see why the government should fund it if I'm honest. 

The clubs are commercial enterprises, they should get their priorities right and start spending the cash on youth development instead of spending thousands each week on journeymen from across the border and beyond.

The SFA also need to take some responsibility and put rules in place to ensure that happens.

Bring back the 3 foreigner rule. I know there are laws that prevent it working the way it used to but surely there's no law in saying you can't have as many foreigners in your overall squad but only 3 in a match day squad.

 

 

 

[Boynze]

you see this thread shows you the problem with football in scotland - we dont actually know what the problem is. everyone has their own opinion and most have good points (to me) but i dont believe that we know the underlying causes as to why we are not producing players, and what are there more and less important factors.

above the 3 foreigner rule has been mentioned, which sounds a good idea to me, but will this help? is there a link across europe to a predominantlycc local population playing the domestic league, to 'success' for the national teams at al levels. i dont know, for example austria last night only had 1 player from their own league in the team, so maybe that is not the be all and end all.

my over-riding point which i would like feedback on is that we need to understand what we want to achieve, then we can look at the problem to achieving this. and i think we need to approach it from a purely scientific basis, using external academics (i suggest economists as i understand that is the sot of thing they do?). only once we do that can we look at solutions.

 

 

[Boynze]

1 hour ago, JECK said:

So are you saying that what he said about lack of investment from the government was drivel? I think the issue with coaches is Iceland have more coaches per capita. I refuse to believe we do not have some good coaches in Scotland - there simply isn't enough of them to go round surely ?

no my point was that he was refusing to believe that iceland might have better coaches than us, and i find that entirely plausible. this sort of attitude i believe does not help, it suggest that we cant learn from others that might be viewed as 'non-footballing nations' and i think that holds us back as an outlook.

[wellyman]

29 minutes ago, JECK said:

So are you saying that what he said about lack of investment from the government was drivel? I think the issue with coaches is Iceland have more coaches per capita. I refuse to believe we do not have some good coaches in Scotland - there simply isn't enough of them to go round surely ?

I coached my sons age group from 5 years to 16 years and had the help of a guy on the fitness side, he had no idea about football but made the fitness side interesting and the kids all through the years would turn up week in week out for training. This would leave me to concentrate on the football side of things, I put in some unconventional idea's, one using hula hoops this helped with accuracy of passing another was making use of the actual foot the guys kicked with the majority can only kick with one foot, so you get them to use the inside, outside and instep of their foot. Due to personally playing at a good standard I had contact with some professional players [old & new]  and every 4 to 6 weeks would get a guy along to talk and help with the training, this would maintain the kids interest and give them a look at what life was like from a professional players view.

Over eleven years we had 16 players play for the team,  they all came from a 5 mile radius of the village  [we did not poach from other teams]  , by the time these guys were 18yo ,  one was playing professionally for a team in Canada, one for a team in the second division in Sweden, 4 play semi-pro in England, 3 guys play eastern counties rugby  [dont know what happened there ?] and 5 others play senior football.

That group is now 20yo and I met a couple of lads recently and they told me that apart from the lad in Canada and the 3 guys who play rugby the rest play lower league or sunday football  -   It just shows that something goes wrong or is not right in that 17 to 20yo age bracket.

 

[jimstroma]

As a coach for a small local team, I regularly watch youth and school football. This season we were Under 15's/ 3rd year High school. The coaching/ facilities available are far better than I had at that age in 1983. 

The biggest stand out issue is the fitness levels of the boys. 

[Boynze]

1 hour ago, wellyman said:

I coached my sons age group from 5 years to 16 years and had the help of a guy on the fitness side, he had no idea about football but made the fitness side interesting and the kids all through the years would turn up week in week out for training. This would leave me to concentrate on the football side of things, I put in some unconventional idea's, one using hula hoops this helped with accuracy of passing another was making use of the actual foot the guys kicked with the majority can only kick with one foot, so you get them to use the inside, outside and instep of their foot. Due to personally playing at a good standard I had contact with some professional players [old & new]  and every 4 to 6 weeks would get a guy along to talk and help with the training, this would maintain the kids interest and give them a look at what life was like from a professional players view.

Over eleven years we had 16 players play for the team,  they all came from a 5 mile radius of the village  [we did not poach from other teams]  , by the time these guys were 18yo ,  one was playing professionally for a team in Canada, one for a team in the second division in Sweden, 4 play semi-pro in England, 3 guys play eastern counties rugby  [dont know what happened there ?] and 5 others play senior football.

That group is now 20yo and I met a couple of lads recently and they told me that apart from the lad in Canada and the 3 guys who play rugby the rest play lower league or sunday football  -   It just shows that something goes wrong or is not right in that 17 to 20yo age bracket.

 

i can easily believe that this is a major factor and i like your story, but how do we compare with other countries on this, like croatia, iceland, albania, hungary, belgium etc? are we any worse, similar or better? 

i think we simply don't understand the route causes of why we are poor, and without that we will never improve things as we will look to fix things in the wrong areas and waste precious resources.

[Diamond Scot]

3 hours ago, Baz said:

I don't really see why the government should fund it if I'm honest. 

The clubs are commercial enterprises, they should get their priorities right and start spending the cash on youth development instead of spending thousands each week on journeymen from across the border and beyond.

The SFA also need to take some responsibility and put rules in place to ensure that happens.

Bring back the 3 foreigner rule. I know there are laws that prevent it working the way it used to but surely there's no law in saying you can't have as many foreigners in your overall squad but only 3 in a match day squad.

 

 

 

EU law doesnt allow for that. The only rule that we could put in plce would be for non EU players which isnt really a big issue for us.

On your 1st point you ask why the government should fund this and not the clubs. 

As you have correctly pointed out clubs are commercial enterprises. Therefore they will do whats best for themselves and not the game as a whole. If a club can have success (in whatever way is deemed success for their club) by signing ready made players then why would they invest that money in a youth system that may not pay off, wont pay off for years ahead or only pay off for the game as a whole. 

The same commercial enterprises choose who runs and hiw our game is run so the same self interest mindset is deployed. Just look at the fixture argument. People know a bigger top league might be better long term but clubs know visits from the Old Firm bring in much more money so self interest keeps the current system in place.

The reason the government should get involved is they are inpartial. Football is our national sport and run properly has huge heath benefits, ecconmic benefits and brings about a feel good factor which boosts self esteem. It filters through society. If Scotland was producing top players at the top of their field then other proffessions and normal people get the belief they can do the same and the country goes from being "we cant" to "we can" nomatter the question.

[Boynze]

25 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

EU law doesnt allow for that. The only rule that we could put in plce would be for non EU players which isnt really a big issue for us.

On your 1st point you ask why the government should fund this and not the clubs. 

As you have correctly pointed out clubs are commercial enterprises. Therefore they will do whats best for themselves and not the game as a whole. If a club can have success (in whatever way is deemed success for their club) by signing ready made players then why would they invest that money in a youth system that may not pay off, wont pay off for years ahead or only pay off for the game as a whole. 

The same commercial enterprises choose who runs and hiw our game is run so the same self interest mindset is deployed. Just look at the fixture argument. People know a bigger top league might be better long term but clubs know visits from the Old Firm bring in much more money so self interest keeps the current system in place.

The reason the government should get involved is they are inpartial. Football is our national sport and run properly has huge heath benefits, ecconmic benefits and brings about a feel good factor which boosts self esteem. It filters through society. If Scotland was producing top players at the top of their field then other proffessions and normal people get the belief they can do the same and the country goes from being "we cant" to "we can" nomatter the question.

good post. 

the question for us (as fans) is what can we do about it? how can we influence the top brass? there are far far more of us than them so how do we get our voices heard and get our points across?

can ATAC use their influence with the sfa for this sort of thing or is this the wrong forum and they wont be listened to?

this is really a call to arms for all scottish football fans, how can we mobilise to get the change that is needed?

it might be pie in the sky but we have the numbers to make a difference if we act together.

[DoonTheSlope]

4 hours ago, Baz said:

The SFA also need to take some responsibility and put rules in place to ensure that happens.

Bring back the 3 foreigner rule. I know there are laws that prevent it working the way it used to but surely there's no law in saying you can't have as many foreigners in your overall squad but only 3 in a match day squad.

Agree. Another reason to vote for Brexit

Its funny though, say that about any other profession and you'll be accused of racism

[Baz]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

EU law doesnt allow for that. The only rule that we could put in plce would be for non EU players which isnt really a big issue for us.

On your 1st point you ask why the government should fund this and not the clubs. 

As you have correctly pointed out clubs are commercial enterprises. Therefore they will do whats best for themselves and not the game as a whole. If a club can have success (in whatever way is deemed success for their club) by signing ready made players then why would they invest that money in a youth system that may not pay off, wont pay off for years ahead or only pay off for the game as a whole. 

The same commercial enterprises choose who runs and hiw our game is run so the same self interest mindset is deployed. Just look at the fixture argument. People know a bigger top league might be better long term but clubs know visits from the Old Firm bring in much more money so self interest keeps the current system in place.

The reason the government should get involved is they are inpartial. Football is our national sport and run properly has huge heath benefits, ecconmic benefits and brings about a feel good factor which boosts self esteem. It filters through society. If Scotland was producing top players at the top of their field then other proffessions and normal people get the belief they can do the same and the country goes from being "we cant" to "we can" nomatter the question.

EU law doesn't prevent this at all. It does prevent a rule blocking the signing of too many EU players as it would come up against the right to work etc. However there is no stipulation that guarantees a player a place in a match day squad so it would be possible for the SFA to limit the number of non scots in a match day squad as any player who didn't play due to the quota would still be classed as being employed.

You've basically hit the nail on the head though with the clubs being commercial enterprises. They are only interested in their own short term success and not the greater good, therein lies the problem.

I don't agree that the government should get involved in the pro game. In fact that is against FIFA regulations. If they want to build more all weather parks and fund school coaching etc then fair enough but why should they invest in the pro game when the clubs themselves won't. 

Its not a fair use of tax payers cash. National game or not. The cash would be much better spent on education and the nhs.