Dallas Shootings

[thplinth]

6 minutes ago, EvilScotsman said:

You need to compare similar crimes committed by blacks/hispanics and by whites, and look at the sentences imposed. Simply using the statistic that 52% of homicides are committed by blacks as some kind of justification for their having a higher prison population is facile.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002

Sorry who did that (apart from you above)? I drew no conclusions from the data.

[EvilScotsman]

2 hours ago, thplinth said:

Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings

Mr. Fryer, the youngest African-American to receive tenure at Harvard and the first to win a John Bates Clark medal, a prize given to the most promising American economist under 40, said anger after the deaths of Michael Brown, Freddie Gray and others drove him to study the issue. “You know, protesting is not my thing,” he said. “But data is my thing. So I decided that I was going to collect a bunch of data and try to understand what really is going on when it comes to racial differences in police use of force.”

Police Try to Lower Racial Bias, but Under Pressure, It Isn’t So Easy JULY 11, 2016
He and student researchers spent about 3,000 hours assembling detailed data from police reports in Houston; Austin, Tex.; Dallas; Los Angeles; Orlando, Fla.; Jacksonville, Fla.; and four other counties in Florida.

They examined 1,332 shootings between 2000 and 2015, coding police narratives to answer questions such as: How old was the suspect? How many police officers were at the scene? Were they mostly white? Was the officer at the scene for a robbery, violent activity, a traffic stop or something else? Was it nighttime? Did the officer shoot after being attacked or before a possible attack? One goal was to determine if police officers were quicker to fire at black suspects.

In shootings in these 10 cities involving officers, officers were more likely to fire their weapons without having first been attacked when the suspects were white. Black and white civilians involved in police shootings were equally likely to have been carrying a weapon. Both results undercut the idea of racial bias in police use of lethal force.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0

ABSTRACT

This paper explores racial differences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force, blacks
and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in
interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior
reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities. On the most extreme use of force – officerinvolved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual
factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model
in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for
discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings

http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf

--------------------------

So once you strip away the lie that black people are more likely to be shot by the police what are you left with? 

 

 

1 hour ago, thplinth said:

Another version of the lie

African Americans make up 13% of the population but 35% of the prison population... this must mean the justice system is racist against African Americans. (you hear similar arguments in the UK.)

Hmmm makes sense doesn't it. Except for one problem it implicitly assumes that blacks and whites commit crime at the same rate. If that were the case then yes you would expect the percentage of blacks in prison to mirror their percentage of the general population. 

But take one example for simplicity say whites were 90% of the population and blacks were 10% of the population but blacks had rates of crime 10 times higher than whites then what percentage shares would you expect to see in the prison populations? It would all other things being equal be about 50% white 50% black.

So what are the relative rates of crime whites versus blacks? If you don't know this you cannot draw any conclusions on the relative percentages in jail based on the relative percentages in the general population. How many of you convinced the cops are evil even know, honestly?

https://infogr.am/Black-34991937313

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

Again if you strip away these lies what are we left with here?

The author of the content in your second post clearly uses the respective crime rates to claim the prison population is nothing to do with racial bias in the justice system of the USA.

I had read the italicised line of the first post, and the entirety of the second one, as being your words. I could be wrong - the lack of any quotation marks makes it difficult to tell.

By presenting the data, which is clearly not done in a 'neutral' manner but as part of an opinionated piece, the implication is that you approve of and endorse it.

Edited July 12, 2016 by EvilScotsman
Missed the first line like an eedjit.

[thplinth]

You have invented a straw man argument here again. Who claimed "the prison population is nothing to do with racial bias in the justice system of the USA". Again apart from you above. (Do it again and I will be ignoring you as it is getting a little hard going.)

First off I quoted from two sources and put the links immediately below. I assumed you would be able to recognize the text in the linked source and know it was a quote. I then drew a line under that and made the comment you have italicized. 

Secondly rather than saying race has no part to play I and others are saying you have to also factor in the differing crime rates to see if the prison populations like out of 'race balance'. (Plus other things no doubt...)

And therefore it is highly irresponsible to throw out the disproportionate race prison populations as evidence of systematic racism in the judicial system or evidence that cops shoot black suspects far more than white ones without also giving the differing crime rates (at the very least). It is really not clear at all what the 'correct' percentages should be and as the professor found out when he crunched the numbers it turns out whites were more likely to be shot than blacks. If that is true with cop shootings you can be sure it will be playing a part in rates of arrest and incarceration. It is pretty obvious - the higher the rate of crime in any demographic the more they will be arrested, imprisoned and sometimes shot by the police and this will end up with disproportionate numbers in jail and / or shot dead by police. To deny that is what I would say is willful stupidity at best or at worst deliberate incitement as you know better. Which are you? 

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by thplinth

[Scotunited]

On 8 July 2016 at 0:11 AM, thplinth said:

Sounds to me like you are an apologist for cop killing. 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Scotunited
No text

[EvilScotsman]

So the second post is yours alone, then?

In which case you refer to the proposition that the disproportionate African American prison population evidences the systemic bias in the justice system as "a lie", based on the assertion that, since blacks commit more crimes than whites, the prison population is naturally higher. This is a facile argument, as I suggested above, and you've completely ignored the point made in that post in favour of constructing a straw man of a 'straw man'.

You've also ignored the alternative study which comes to a different conclusion with regards to the rate and proportion of police killings of blacks and whites.

 

 

[Scotunited]

So if blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they are more likely to be in jail, and involved in sometimes fatal interactions with the police? So by that logic if you are black you are more likely to be involved in a crime, or more likely to be shot by police, as it is demographics?

[thplinth]

1 hour ago, EvilScotsman said:

So the second post is yours alone, then?

In which case you refer to the proposition that the disproportionate African American prison population evidences the systemic bias in the justice system as "a lie", based on the assertion that, since blacks commit more crimes than whites, the prison population is naturally higher. This is a facile argument, as I suggested above, and you've completely ignored the point made in that post in favour of constructing a straw man of a 'straw man'.

You've also ignored the alternative study which comes to a different conclusion with regards to the rate and proportion of police killings of blacks and whites.

 

 

Maybe you should try quoting what I say instead of your shite interpretation of what I say. It could save us some time. I repeat...

"Another version of the lie

African Americans make up 13% of the population but 35% of the prison population... this must mean the justice system is racist against African Americans. (you hear similar arguments in the UK.)"

A facile argument is citing the black population at 13% versus the prison population at 35% and claiming it is evidence of systematic racism. To do so knowingly to mislead makes it a (dangerous) lie.

I am surprised you are struggling so much to understand. Given the disproportionate respective crime rates 35% blacks in the prison population would not be unexpected it might even be low, hard to say what % exactly you would expect but certainly you would expect the disproportionate crime rates to result in disproportionate incarceration rates which is what you see. One clearly follows from the other.

Does that mean racism is non existent in the judicial system? No and no one claimed it was but I look forward to your next post with some made up argument you claim I said. 

Edited July 12, 2016 by thplinth

[phart]

1 hour ago, Scotunited said:

So if blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they are more likely to be in jail, and involved in sometimes fatal interactions with the police? So by that logic if you are black you are more likely to be involved in a crime, or more likely to be shot by police, as it is demographics?

You're assuming race here. It could be age group, pay packet, social status, marital status.

" the higher the rate of crime in any demographic the more they will be arrested, imprisoned and sometimes shot by the police and this will end up with disproportionate numbers in jail and / or shot dead by police. "

is the quote, no need to make up another one that suits your argument better.

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by phart

[Scotunited]

31 minutes ago, phart said:

You're assuming race here. It could be age group, pay packet, social status, marital status.

" the higher the rate of crime in any demographic the more they will be arrested, imprisoned and sometimes shot by the police and this will end up with disproportionate numbers in jail and / or shot dead by police. "

is the quote, no need to make up another one that suits your argument better.

 

Not assuming race, that as one example of a particular demographic, and it is not to make any argument better, is trying to get to understand the statistics quoted.  It is easy to use stats, to prove or disprove most things. 

Think the police in the USA, have a difficult job, in trying to do the job, and policing fairly and non judgemental, which must be difficult if you see the same situations day in day out, it is bound to create certain perceptions, and posible unintentionally bias in dealing with these situations.

 

[phart]

22 minutes ago, Scotunited said:

Not assuming race, that as one example of a particular demographic, and it is not to make any argument better, is trying to get to understand the statistics quoted.  It is easy to use stats, to prove or disprove most things. 

 

 

The reason i assumed you were assuming race was below. I can see where you're coming from though.

" the higher the rate of crime in any demographic the more they will be arrested, imprisoned and sometimes shot by the police and this will end up with disproportionate numbers in jail and / or shot dead by police. " 

was the quote and you said

" So if blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they are more likely to be in jail, and involved in sometimes fatal interactions with the police?  So by that logic if you are black you are more likely to be involved in a crime, or more likely to be shot by police, as it is demographics? "

All thplinth is saying with that is to come to the conclusion that from 13% population to 35% prison population to assume it is because of a racist system requires there to be equal rates of crime. Explaining the axioms built into that statistic cause as you say, they can be spun to say most things.

 

[thplinth]

2 hours ago, phart said:

You're assuming race here. It could be age group, pay packet, social status, marital status.

" the higher the rate of crime in any demographic the more they will be arrested, imprisoned and sometimes shot by the police and this will end up with disproportionate numbers in jail and / or shot dead by police. "

is the quote, no need to make up another one that suits your argument better.

 

Exactly. If left handers committed crimes at a far higher rate than right handers you would expect to find them over represented in the jails and the police statistics versus right handers. To instead say 'look! this proves the police have a problem with lefties' by deliberating ignoring their higher rate of crime and only focusing on their low share of the population is obviously either misguided or an attempt to mislead.

Sure there are other factors which I have emphasized a few times now but clearly it is less facile to consider crime rates together with population shares than to ignore them all together (which was my original point). Somehow that gets twisted into claiming racism does not exist at all in the justice system blah blah blah... it is all very wearisome.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by thplinth

[phart]

16 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Exactly. If left handers committed crimes at a far higher rate than right handers you would expect to find them over represented in the jails and the police statistics versus right handers. To instead say 'look! this proves the police have a problem with lefties' by deliberating ignoring their higher rate of crime and only focusing on their low share of the population is obviously either misguided or an attempt to mislead.

Sure there are other factors which I have emphasized a few times now but clearly it is less facile to consider crime rates together with population shares than to ignore them all together (which was my original point). Somehow that gets twisted into claiming racism does not exist at all in the justice system blah blah blah... it is all very wearisome.

 

 

You have to the least assumptions possible (Occams razor and all that) so assuming uniform crime rates across demographics isn't a good starting point.

It might even be deliberate sophistry by authorities in a divide and conquer manner.

[thplinth]

13 minutes ago, phart said:

You have to the least assumptions possible (Occams razor and all that) so assuming uniform crime rates across demographics isn't a good starting point.

It might even be deliberate sophistry by authorities in a divide and conquer manner.

I am fairly sure it is (from observing it this last few years) but that is another thread. There are votes in it.

It is very simple and not difficult to understand yet you'd think it was Martian. The reason one demographic group is jailed / shot far more than another will be primarily explained by the different rates of crime in that demographic. 

What are the social reasons for that demographic exhibiting those higher or lower rates? That is another question and at this point we have to first say ok, the statistics do not 'prove' the justice system has it in for blacks, but clearly blacks are committing crimes at a very high rate so lets understand why. 

The temptation will be to explain this by blaming it on white racism now and historical racism including slavery. The problem with this argument is that most of the measures showing how blacks are disadvantaged show that things have got much worse from the mid 60's onwards despite vast material improvements in standards of living. Seemingly it was the programs that were designed to solve the problems that caused them anew and multiplied them. And now they are doubling down on the claims of racism blah blah. People are going to get killed over this shite. Already happening.

[Scotunited]

1 hour ago, thplinth said:

  People are going to get killed over this shite. Already happening.

And nowadays, there are video phones and social media to cover the events of being beaten, harassed or killed.  Historically these events could have been ignored, or not gained the publicity, therefore the extent of any improper behaviour could be denied.

[Rossy]

Anyone watching the OJ Simpson documentary on BT Sport ?

 It's on the 2nd episode and the background is the horrendous, brutal treatment and institutional racism that the black community in LA endured in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

It's pretty fascinating. 

[Angus_Young]

6 minutes ago, Rossy said:

Anyone watching the OJ Simpson documentary on BT Sport ?

 It's on the 2nd episode and the background is the horrendous, brutal treatment and institutional racism that the black community in LA endured in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

It's pretty fascinating. 

Got it recording. Comes highly recommended.

[phart]

1 hour ago, Rossy said:

Anyone watching the OJ Simpson documentary on BT Sport ?

 It's on the 2nd episode and the background is the horrendous, brutal treatment and institutional racism that the black community in LA endured in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

It's pretty fascinating. 

 

1 hour ago, Angus_Young said:

Got it recording. Comes highly recommended.

Not seen it but every American I know is raving about it. Is it not 10 hours or so?

[Rossy]

7 hours ago, phart said:

 

Not seen it but every American I know is raving about it. Is it not 10 hours or so?

Yeah, 5 episodes at 2 hours a pop.

I only started watching it by mistake on Monday night and quickly got engrossed. It's not just the usual 'if the glove doesn't fit' guff, it's a pretty fascinating look into what life was like for a black person in LA in the 70's and 80's, and the contrast between that and Simpson's 'almost white' country club lifestyle.

 

[Parklife]

9 hours ago, Rossy said:

Anyone watching the OJ Simpson documentary on BT Sport ?

 It's on the 2nd episode and the background is the horrendous, brutal treatment and institutional racism that the black community in LA endured in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

It's pretty fascinating. 

I've watched the first 2 episodes online and it's been really engaging and informative thus far. As someone too young to have seen OJ's career progress, i know little about him as a character. Very interesting. 

[brant grebner]

Great to see Dindu Nuffin is still alive and kicking in Baton Rouge.

Can't wait for Obama's next press conference where he says "back the cops" and avoids any mention of his tacit support for cop killing by his years of blaming the police and excusing blacks for their rampant criminality by singing straight from the black lies matter hymnsheet.

[brant grebner]

Last Friday, when BlackLiesMatter agitator and wife of g-rap billionaire Beyonce was having a concert in Glasgow. She stopped the concert to hold a 2 minutes silence for the (then) latest victims of police "brutality" in the US.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36746290/beyonce-pays-tribute-to-us-police-shooting-victims-at-her-glasgow-gig

During the 2 minute silence this monolith with the names of black people who had been killed by the police was projected behind her

This cretin's reaction was typical of those in the audience

Now there's an awful lot of names on that there wall and there are the obvious ones like Trayvon Martin (Obama's "son" who attacked the jumpy neighbourhood watch guy - who was understandably worried given that the estate that he lived on had had over 300 home invasions by blacks from the neighbouring project in the previous 12 months) and Mike Brown (the gentle giant who robbed a convenience store and attacked a cop), but there are a great many unknown ones on there so I started going through the list to find out what happened to them and who these people were who the audience was being asked to genuflect in sombre silence to.

Of the first 112 names on the monolith, 20 were deaths worthy of protest. And these were cases going back as far as the killing of Amadou Diallo in 1999.

Of the other 92 - and these were including cases going back as far as 1984 - these were a combination of drug/obesity related deaths, people killed in shootouts or trying to run cops over with their vehicles. Here's some of the highlights:

Travares McGill    16/07/2005    shot after trying to run over 2 security guards in a car
Kimani Gray    09/03/2015    shot after pulling a gun on 2 cops
ezell ford    11/08/2014    attacked a cop and tried to steal his gun
dontre hamilton    30/04/2014    shot after attacking cop with his own baton. Paranoid scizophrenic who attacked a policeman
omar abrego    02/08/2014    resisted arrest and punched a cop, forcibly restrained. Full of cocaine. Cocaine toxicity ruled coroner
kajieme powell    19/08/2014    robbed a store and threatened cops with a knife
mckenzie cochrane    28/01/2014    Casing jewelry store. Threated store owner. Pepper sprayed and restrained by security guards. Died of respiratory issue
keith atkinson    16/02/2014    shoplifting suspect, pulled gun on cops as he ran. Shot by cops
askari roberts    18/03/2015    full of methamphetamine and cocaine. Assaulted his wife and daughter. Cops called. Tasered him. Died of respiratory issue
david andre scott    27/12/2014    double murder suspect pointed gun at SWAT team. Got blown away
carlton fisher III    18/03/2014    Shot by state-troopers after he ran over and dragged an officer with his vehicle.
donte sowell    16/04/2014    stopped by police on outstanding warrant. Fled and then shot at police. Hit one in the foot in a gunbattle. Wasted
kendre omari alston    19/03/2015    tried to ram police car off road, then aimed gun at police when fleeing with armed accomplice and was shot. Accomplice dropped gun and not shot
michael willis jr    18/09/2014    tried to shoot cops with a rifle
andre maurice jones    08/08/2014    evaded a traffic stop and then fired multiple rounds at police.
adam ardett madison    20/10/2014    murder suspect. Fought with cop at a checkpoint. Shot by cop. Had "fvck em all" tattooed on his face.

hashim hanif ibn abdul-shaheed    08/01/2015    tried to buy a plane ticket with fake ID and then attacked cops with knifes in the airport.
leonardo marquette little    25/11/2014    pulled over for traffic stop. Had suspended licence. Attacked the cop cuffing him and stole his taser before being shot
samuel johnson    25/06/2014    shot by police after being pursued for shoplifting and shooting at police and a security guard
emerson clayton jr    08/03/2014    cops responded to a fight at a restaurant. Tried to run over the police in his car and was shot
lawrence campbell    12/07/2014    armed robbery on a pharmacy, assaulted a security guard then murdered a police officer  - officer Melvin Santiago
lathron walker    18/08/2014    cops called to hostage situation. Had a gun on him. Was shot when seen struggling with hostage in window. shot by sniper
nyocomus garnett        27/06/2014    armed robbery in bodega kitchen. Started shooting when employees were not moving quickly enough. Off duty Cop eating with family in restaurant shot him.
charles emmett logan    07/11/2014    tried to attack several nurses with metal pole - attempted to strike them in the head. Tasered and died later.
george v king    07/05/2014    on drugs in hospital. Went nuts. Tried to kick a pregnant nurse and fought 5 security guards before tasered. Died of cardiac arrest
jermonte fletcher    27/01/2015    fugitive on the run for over 12 months for multiple charges of drug dealing and illegal weapons, killed in shoot out with police
elijah jackson    12/11/2014    wanted for aggravated assault. Tried to run down several cops with his vehicle
jerame c reid    30/12/2014    pulled over . Found with gun. Struggled with cop and was shot  while trying to exit the vehicle
ceasar adams    18/09/2014    attempted murder of off duty cop working security at a store where he and 2 others attempted an armed robbery
rodney hodge    27/06/2014    Waved his gun at police and others in hour long armed standoff before walking at pedstrians with gun pointed. Police shot him.
ronald singleton    29/08/2014    High on PCP. Fought with police before being restrained in straightjacket. Died of cardiac arrest. Obestity and drugs both factors
yvette henderson    03/02/2015    Pointed revolver at securty guard when shoplifting in a mall. Tried to carjack 3 cars and then pointed gun at cops. They shot her.
aljarreau cross    10/10/2014    avoided a traffic stop. Shot a cop 4 times before he was killed by other officers
antonio martin    23/12/2014    police responding to shoplifting call tried to stop him. He pulled a 9mm pistol on cop and was shot.
carrey brown    16/09/2014    cops called to house by wife who said he was going crazy with a gun. Shooting his gun. Wife and kids hiding in bathroom. Shot by a sniper
frederick r miller    16/08/2014    shot and stabbed his 3 year old daughter and her grandfather and great grandmother to death. Killed in gunfight with pursuing officers
terry garnett jr    11/03/2015    refused to pull over for traffic stop. Tried to run over cop with SUV. Large amount of heroin found in car.
anthony lamar brown    23/08/2014    stole a bike. Refused to stop, dodged a taser and then shot at a cop with a gun before cop returned fire and killed him.
raupheal thomas    03/07/2015    high on meth. Confronted cops responding to a report. Was tasered and shot a gun at the cops who shot him back and ended him
daniel christopher yealu    07/04/2014    walked in to LA police station and opened fire on two cops at front desk. Had AK47 with numerours rounds in car also
philip watkins    11/02/2015    called 911 and went to attack responding cops with a knife. Testimony from family and friends indicate deliberate case of suicide by cop
fednel rhinvil    03/03/2015    cops responding to threat to shoot up a house stopped man. He fled and then pulled a gun on cop. Was shot dead. Had previous also.
carlos davenport    09/11/2014    cops attended armed disturbance. Man had sword, refused to put it down and charged at cop with sword. Cop shot him.
tracy a wade    02/10/2014    cops went with 2 felony arrest warrants. 8 hour armed standoff ensued. SWAT entered house. She pointed gun and never went to jail.
dustin keith glover    11/08/2014    high on PCP. Domestic disturbance, Cops tased him. Taken into custody and released. Died a couple of days later from PCP toxicity
shawn brown    09/09/2014    suspected of shooting in a market. Cops went to his house. He shot 4 times at police who shot back 2 times mortally wounding him

Frederick R Miller and Daniel Christopher Yealu were really worthy of the veneration of the people at Hampden that night.

BlackLivesMatter do nothing to address the inherent problem of criminality and thug gangsta culture that dominates black society.

That BlackLivesMatter hold these people up as being victims of police brutality is staggering.

People actually think it's acceptable to kill police because the police killed people who were trying to kill them.

The behaviour of these people is like someone playing out Grand Theft Auto in real life.

Imagine an activist movement that campaigns/riots every time someone with 3 wanted stars gets killed by the police in GTA5 - that's what BlackLivesMatter are in reality.

Edited July 17, 2016 by brant grebner

[Barney Rubble]

Americans (as a society) are the most irresponsible gun owners in the world.

Why on earth are they still given such easy access to firearms?

[thplinth]

Europeans (as a society) are the most irresponsible truck owners in the world.

Why on earth are they still given such easy access to rental lorries?

If only folk had been allow to own guns they could have shot that loony european lorry renting khunt.

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by thplinth

[Barney Rubble]

2 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Europeans (as a society) are the most irresponsible truck owners in the world.

Why on earth are they still given such easy access to rental lorries?

If only folk had been allow to own guns they could have shot that loony european lorry renting khunt.

 

[thplinth]

When was the last mass shooter who managed to kill 85 or more (or whatever the gruesome total is now)?

Access to guns if anything limits / blinds very stupid homicidal people's imaginations to what they can actually achieve by other means. Not truck boy though. He can see the potential of ordinary things. 

The solution here as you will all find out is more guns not less. Europe the same.