deecie Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, Marky said: So what cost were you referring to? I'm not one of these braindead "at any costs" types, so can't help you with that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmac1 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, aaid said: A large number of people who voted no seen no contradiction between being both Scottish and British. I'd suggest that anyone who supports Scottish Independence and wants to convince others gets their head around that and adopts a counter-narrative. Alternatively you could just shout "YOU'RE NOT SCOTTISH", that might work. I've never understood this argument. As I mentioned previously in all intents and purposes you are British. Nationality, citizenship etc. Some people chose to define themselves as Scottish but not all. After indepdnece you could have dual nationality and be Scottish and British officially Edited September 13, 2016 by iainmac1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Just now, deecie said: I'm not one of these braindead "at any costs" types, so can't help you with that one. You've lost me. You used the expression but can't explain it? In order to brand someone as "independence at any cost" you must have some idea of what those costs might be. Other than financial I'm struggling to imagine what those costs might be. For me, self determination is the be all and end all. Every single other nation who has sought independence doesn't seem to have had a problem with that concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killiefaetheferry Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 24 minutes ago, aaid said: A large number of people who voted no seen no contradiction between being both Scottish and British. I'd suggest that anyone who supports Scottish Independence and wants to convince others gets their head around that and adopts a counter-narrative. Alternatively you could just shout "YOU'RE NOT SCOTTISH", that might work. This is the crux. Too many Yes voters and Scotland fans cannot deviate from the argument that No voting and Scotland supporting are not compatible. I am tempted and seduced by that sentiment, in a kind of "how dare you" kind of a way. So although I don't feel able to accept that the 2 are compatible, I realise that I need to accept that others have a different point of view, and that they believe that Scottish (in sport), and British/UK in nationality is perfectly fine. I think getting hung up in this type of argument, and calling out No voters with regard to supporting Scotland, could be very counter productive in terms of persuading those No voters to change their minds. We will just harden their position by slagging them off, closing off any potential change of vote on the genuine arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecie Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Marky said: You've lost me. You used the expression but can't explain it? In order to brand someone as "independence at any cost" you must have some idea of what those costs might be. Other than financial I'm struggling to imagine what those costs might be. For me, self determination is the be all and end all. Every single other nation who has sought independence doesn't seem to have had a problem with that concept. What do you need explained? There are people who would happily vote for independence even if they knew it would reduce the quality of their own childs life. I have a problem with these people. These people are easy to find, when posed with a slightly tricky question they use words like "destiny" and "oppression" rather than tackle the subject at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 On 11/09/2016 at 11:45 PM, kumnio said: I assume he means that more Rangers fans would have ditched Scotland, and as a result they wouldnt be in the number 1 spot now. Well according to the original post and title, I thought the TA is 2 Rangers fans down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmac1 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, deecie said: What do you need explained? There are people who would happily vote for independence even if they knew it would reduce the quality of their own childs life. I have a problem with these people. These people are easy to find, when posed with a slightly tricky question they use words like "destiny" and "oppression" rather than tackle the subject at hand. Who has ever said they are happy with reducing the quality of their child's lives? Or are you making that up to exaggerate a point that you're not entirely sure of? Who are 'these' people as I'm pretty sure you just made that up. A bit like this start of this thread actually. Edited September 13, 2016 by iainmac1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu101 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 20 minutes ago, exile said: Well according to the original post and title, I thought the TA is 2 Rangers fans down More Rangers fans follow Scotland than fans of any other club, according to this rollercoaster of a thread. So I'm sure missing 2 (probably imaginary ones) wont really matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlueGaz Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 3 hours ago, iainmac1 said: Surely if you view the UK as your country and your nationality as British then you would rather have a British football team to support. So Scotland is not a country? Â By supporting the Scottish national team, I am not supporting my country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmac1 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) 20 minutes ago, BlueGaz said: So Scotland is not a country?  By supporting the Scottish national team, I am not supporting my country? Who's talking about you? I said if you view your country as the UK and your nationality as British then surely you would like a British football team. That's quite straight forward no? Obviously not everyone holds that view but some do. There are some people who don't see Scotland as a country, only the UK, of which Scotland is a region. No idea how this is related to you not supporting a country. I have no idea who you are. Edited September 13, 2016 by iainmac1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlueGaz Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 1 hour ago, iainmac1 said: Who's talking about you? I said if you view your country as the UK and your nationality as British then surely you would like a British football team. That's quite straight forward no? Obviously not everyone holds that view but some do. There are some people who don't see Scotland as a country, only the UK, of which Scotland is a region. No idea how this is related to you not supporting a country. I have no idea who you are. "Surely if you view the UK as your country and your nationality as British then you would rather have a British football team to support".  In reply to my post.  I'm just used to many on here assuming I am all for Britain because of the football team that I support, so apologise.  There isn't any valid alternative view, other than Scotland is a country that is part of the UK.  I suppose there must be some that don't want Scotland to be a country, so I understand what you mean.  I don't know any though.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 2 hours ago, killiefaetheferry said: This is the crux. Too many Yes voters and Scotland fans cannot deviate from the argument that No voting and Scotland supporting are not compatible. I am tempted and seduced by that sentiment, in a kind of "how dare you" kind of a way. So although I don't feel able to accept that the 2 are compatible, I realise that I need to accept that others have a different point of view, and that they believe that Scottish (in sport), and British/UK in nationality is perfectly fine. I think getting hung up in this type of argument, and calling out No voters with regard to supporting Scotland, could be very counter productive in terms of persuading those No voters to change their minds. We will just harden their position by slagging them off, closing off any potential change of vote on the genuine arguments. Well said. Worth noting that Scotland had been competing in international football for about 100 years before anyone from the SNP got elected to parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu101 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 1 hour ago, iainmac1 said: Who's talking about you? I said if you view your country as the UK and your nationality as British then surely you would like a British football team. That's quite straight forward no? Obviously not everyone holds that view but some do. There are some people who don't see Scotland as a country, only the UK, of which Scotland is a region. No idea how this is related to you not supporting a country. I have no idea who you are. Not really followed this, but cant believe anyone doesn't see Scotland as a country. And no one, ever, would want a British football team. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Stu101 said: More Rangers fans follow Scotland than fans of any other club, according to this rollercoaster of a thread. So I'm sure missing 2 (probably imaginary ones) wont really matter Who knows where this is going? It's got TA, Rangers and now politics, what threads will it swallow next? bake-off? bees? games of thrones? Edited September 13, 2016 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu101 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 28 minutes ago, exile said: Who knows where this is going? It's got TA, Rangers and now politics, what threads will it swallow next? bake-off? bees? games of thrones? Maybe this is the start of the end. A black hole slowly drawing everything else in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Return of Yermaw Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Pate coming on now with tripe. Bananas. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 19 hours ago, deecie said: I'm sure this concept will confuse the braindead 'Independence at any cost' mob. Â 18 hours ago, deecie said: I don't remember mentioning cost once. Yup, no mention of cost. Â 18 hours ago, deecie said: I used the word 'cost', but as part of the phrase 'at any cost'. These have different meanings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debian Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Were these the 2 guys used as effigies on Saturday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgowmancity Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 21 hours ago, iainmac1 said: I've never understood this argument. As I mentioned previously in all intents and purposes you are British. Nationality, citizenship etc. Some people chose to define themselves as Scottish but not all. After indepdnece you could have dual nationality and be Scottish and British officially Never seemed to be a problem in Dortmund just prior to the referendum  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Hell you might have cropped him out.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) Probably a good case for deleting this thread.  Story obviously boll cks I'm not sure many Scots really consider their nationality to be British.  Yeah, it's part of the identity but not the immediate response to that question as the identity of choice. Sure Better Together did a survey and only about 20% (or less) felt that way inclined.  And that's including many people who are quintessentially British from Rest of the UK heritage, ethnic minorities etc. Would bear out to me.  If a foreigner asks where you're from I genuinely don't know many who would say British rather than Scottish.  Not anti or anything you understand, just doesn't seem natural.  Aye there will be some but you get the impression it would be  point making exercise..  Edited September 14, 2016 by PapofGlencoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmac1 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Glasgowmancity said: Never seemed to be a problem in Dortmund just prior to the referendum  A totally unrelated picture to my point but ok... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 47 minutes ago, iainmac1 said: A totally unrelated picture to my point but ok... I guess it's just GlasgowManCity's - for it is he in the picture - way of showing that No voters can support Scotland too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 I never seen it as a vote about identity, while I would never vote no I understand why many did, and many did because they thought it was the best decision for their families and Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Laud Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 On 13/09/2016 at 7:07 PM, deecie said: What do you need explained? There are people who would happily vote for independence even if they knew it would reduce the quality of their own childs life. I have a problem with these people. These people are easy to find, when posed with a slightly tricky question they use words like "destiny" and "oppression" rather than tackle the subject at hand. Like some labour mpswho came out and said Idont care if we would all be better off under independance i will never vote for it.As far as im concerned these people are the enemy of Scotland and in my eyes can go and support team gb or start a morris dancing club,Not welcomed by me at Scotland games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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