Lessons For Next Time

[Guest Extreme0]

The worry is what sort of country we will have in 10 years when the likes of boris Johnson and Nigel farange welding power in Westminster

Resentment and Hate.

Or Labour back in power...but nothing improves so resentment and Hate.

[Guest BlueGaz]

I'm not preaching.

I'm just stating the obvious that being abroad allows you to see the kind of country that Scotland could become. Many of my colleagues come from smaller (or equally small) European countries.

They're baffled as to why Scotland turned its back on independence.

You're not stating the obvious though. You have just told me I didn't have the balls to vote Yes. That's not the case.

Edited September 19, 2014 by BlueGaz

[exile]

I understand and agreed the softly softly approach of transition put forward this time, but I wonder if a full-on independence strategy would now be a better way to go, in particular with a clear proposition for own banks/currency. Royals could be a sticking point - although maybe not such a problem in 15 to 20 years time.

As long as we have 95% unionist media, then an all-out independence campaign is in danger of falling short. Labour never got into power in 1990s by being purer socialists.

I think instead they must go for the middle ground, and as I say, work it through with rUK in advance, so all parties are comfortable with what is about to happen.

Devolution was secured by voting on a clear proposition that the government of the day had the power to implement. People could see more clearly what they were voting for.

Still, if it was a leap in the dark, the fact that 45% were willing to take it shows the potential.

[exile]

And look what the media did to the yes campaign here. It was a fully inclusive grass-roots campaign but a lot of those no votes (including my dad's) were fueled by the opinion that Yes was an intimidating unruly bullying mob. That image was deliberately painted by a combination of the media and politicians.

This.

It was the sucker punch, the Daily Mail was able to portray the pacific quay protest as a baying mob trying to stifle journalistic freedom.

And fuelling fears of extremist nationalism, while approving of Brown wrapping himself in the union jack.

[Third Lanark]

My son's school found out today that they voted 53% Yes in Midlothian. Wait 10 years and get rid of the self-serving coffin-dodging bastards. Game on.

Sorry, who voted 53%? The people at the school? Midlothian as a whole went No.

[Armchair Bob]

Won't need to worry about the currency or pensions next time. The UK is carrying unsustainable amounts of debt. In a few years the pound and your pensions will be worth feck all.

That's the point that the fiscal conservatives can make a bid for independence and paint an independent Scotland as some kind of tax-free Bahamian paradise, promise a lax tax regime and the media moguls will be all over us like racists around Farage.

Wouldn't it be ironic if it is people like Murdo Fraser who end the union.

We might even be able to afford to pay Rihanna to endorse indy.

[thewelk]

This.

It was the sucker punch, the Daily Mail was able to portray the pacific quay protest as a baying mob trying to stifle journalistic freedom.

And fuelling fears of extremist nationalism, while approving of Brown wrapping himself in the union jack.

Saw Michelle Mone on sky a couple of days ago for a wee interview outside holyrood for the usual "ahm leavin" chat. There was a bunch of yes supporters in the background chanting about the BBC, then after the interview you could hear Mone in the background saying "oh, lets just hope it doesn't turn violent". What the f*ck kind of thing to say? There was no hint of violence whatsoever, she just had to get that wee dig out to the braindead to scare them a bit more.

And that kind of thing was systematic and deliberate among all of the no campaigners.

Edited September 19, 2014 by thewelk

[ULSTERSCOTAS]

My son's school found out today that they voted 53% Yes in Midlothian. Wait 10 years and get rid of the self-serving coffin-dodging bastards. Game on.

IF THIS IS WHAT YOU SERIOUSLY ASPIRE TO THEN IT'S DEEPLY DISHONOURABLE. WHY CAN'T YOUS ALL JUST ACCEPT THAT IT'S OK TO LOVE SCOTLAND AND LOVE THE UK. I HOPE THIS IS THE END OF ADOLF SALMOND!

[kumnio]

IF THIS IS WHAT YOU SERIOUSLY ASPIRE TO THEN IT'S DEEPLY DISHONOURABLE. WHY CAN'T YOUS ALL JUST ACCEPT THAT IT'S OK TO LOVE SCOTLAND AND LOVE THE UK. I HOPE THIS IS THE END OF ADOLF SALMOND!

Away and top yourself ya Pratt.

[Goozay]

IF THIS IS WHAT YOU SERIOUSLY ASPIRE TO THEN IT'S DEEPLY DISHONOURABLE. WHY CAN'T YOUS ALL JUST ACCEPT THAT IT'S OK TO LOVE SCOTLAND AND LOVE THE UK. I HOPE THIS IS THE END OF ADOLF SALMOND!

The CAPS LOCK, the "Adolf" reference.

Well done. That is easily the worst post of the new TAMB.

[exile]

Back to lessons learned...

I think the Yes side underestimated the strength of feeling of Britishness (well, I did anyway) and the threat of loss

I mean, the Yes side if it won would win a country; for a lot of the Nos, they would feel they were losing theirs. In other words they had more to lose. Also the sentiment down south, though a mixed bag of faint praise, love, apathy, scepticism, condescension and disdain, in terms of attitudes to Scotland, still misses the positive sense of Britishness that many English people seem to have. Some of those feeling are about their appreciation of the bit of them that is British over and above their Englishness, and the bit of it (slightly more significantly) that makes them feel that all of Britain belongs to them, so 'our' lochs and bens are theirs too. the country they don;t want to find themselves foreigners in, or cut off from.

Of course the Scots may say 'too bad, it's our decision' (as the eurosceptics would say about leaving the EU) but it underestimates the determination to hold on - beyond issues of strategic significance and subsidy.

So there are lessons on 2 levels - to not underestimate the determination of the No side to fight for something the Yessers might think has little value; and the possible need to accommodate independence in the context of Britishness, or to accommodate Britishness in the context of independence.

[thplinth]

Don't lose.

[ULSTERSCOTAS]

Lol . . . l nearly swallied my illustrated guide tae 'Practical Ageism and Fascism'. Look the comment that l challenged was well oot o order - so tell me, when does the post referendum 'Team Scotland' (reference the supposedly departed dictator) kick in?

[EvilScotsman]

Lol . . . l nearly swallied my illustrated guide tae 'Practical Ageism and Fascism'. Look the comment that l challenged was well oot o order - so tell me, when does the post referendum 'Team Scotland' (reference the supposedly departed dictator) kick in?

The comment which was immediately followed by 'Joking aside'?

[Dillinger]

Will really need to spend a great deal more time and effort connecting with and convincing the over 55s

[ErsatzThistle]

IF THIS IS WHAT YOU SERIOUSLY ASPIRE TO THEN IT'S DEEPLY DISHONOURABLE. WHY CAN'T YOUS ALL JUST ACCEPT THAT IT'S OK TO LOVE SCOTLAND AND LOVE THE UK. I HOPE THIS IS THE END OF ADOLF SALMOND!

Sounds like Nigel the Highlander who was on Question Time.

"Proudly British Highlander. Highland Regiments. British Army. Uncle Charlie. Queen and country. Scotland will always be British, by Jesus."

Will really need to spend a great deal more time and effort connecting with and convincing the over 55s

Not much point in my experience. Many of the over 55s I've encountered in the referendum campaign wanted the Scottish Parliament abolished ! Too many stubborn ones who refuse to entertain new ideas or accept that Britain is one fecked up nation.

Great respect for all the over 55 Yes voters though

Keeping our teenage "Yes" voters engaged with independence and winning over soft No's in their twenties and thirties should see us through alright.

[Auld_Reekie]

IMO, currency was a major issue. If it didnt cost us the win, the distractions certainly lost us focus. I still consider monetary union to be the best option but it is now evidently clear we must control all aspects of the Yes proposal. Which means that the SNP and any other pro-independence party must position themselves as supporting an independent Scottish currency and everything that that entails. By all means indicate a willingness to cooperate and negotiate a monetary union but the starting point must be an independent economy. I still think pushing for monetary union was the right thing to do but now is the time to take control of those policies or issues that we failed to dominate so that we can control the debate. We need a better understanding of how this would be implemented, how we would transition to it and who it would affect most. Case studies of other currencies and how they came about are needed, and we need to start making the case now about the benefits and how we might negate concerns.

This is only one part of why we failed but we must start to address how we resolve it. The fiscal commission must focus more on a new currency and/or the SNP and other independence movements need to finance studies that might help people understand what is involved.

If independence requires monetary union, then we might never get there. We need to start controlling the policy discussions on our own terms and find ways to mitigate the problems early on.

[neilly71]

Lol . . . l nearly swallied my illustrated guide tae 'Practical Ageism and Fascism'. Look the comment that l challenged was well oot o order - so tell me, when does the post referendum 'Team Scotland' (reference the supposedly departed dictator) kick in?

We arent going away, we are still fighting as hard for Independence, even harder actually. Your antiquated union is in its death throes.

[Mark frae Crieff]

Lol . . . l nearly swallied my illustrated guide tae 'Practical Ageism and Fascism'. Look the comment that l challenged was well oot o order - so tell me, when does the post referendum 'Team Scotland' (reference the supposedly departed dictator) kick in?

The end game is fast approaching...Team Scotland can stand back and watch oor neighbours pull themselves apart for the scraps of what was the voting public..... Our loss last Thursday is just the start of a political apocalypse that may see us get our goal...

[jd123]

I've got a feeling that England devolution will eventually lead to independance rather than scotland actually voting for it

[big_matt]

Will really need to spend a great deal more time and effort connecting with and convincing the over 55s

Absolutely, but many of them will never change regardless of the arguments.

Many of them dont care that the generations that follow them will be the first in history to be poorer than their parents. In fact a think tank recently said that as a generation, many over 55's have 'considerably more wealth than they need'.

We live in a very selfish world now, and many (although certainly not all) in that generation are only after themselves.

Got loads of sympathy for the really old people who were scared into voting no by the media, but your 55 year old no voter with the buy to let flats and the range rover wont change imo.

Edited September 23, 2014 by big_matt

[ronaldhinos dentist]

IMO, currency was a major issue. If it didnt cost us the win, the distractions certainly lost us focus. I still consider monetary union to be the best option but it is now evidently clear we must control all aspects of the Yes proposal. Which means that the SNP and any other pro-independence party must position themselves as supporting an independent Scottish currency and everything that that entails. By all means indicate a willingness to cooperate and negotiate a monetary union but the starting point must be an independent economy. I still think pushing for monetary union was the right thing to do but now is the time to take control of those policies or issues that we failed to dominate so that we can control the debate. We need a better understanding of how this would be implemented, how we would transition to it and who it would affect most. Case studies of other currencies and how they came about are needed, and we need to start making the case now about the benefits and how we might negate concerns.

This is only one part of why we failed but we must start to address how we resolve it. The fiscal commission must focus more on a new currency and/or the SNP and other independence movements need to finance studies that might help people understand what is involved.

If independence requires monetary union, then we might never get there. We need to start controlling the policy discussions on our own terms and find ways to mitigate the problems early on.

[ronaldhinos dentist]

This.

The currency issue was the master stroke from WM. once they realised how much fear a denial could generate, it became a mantra for every one of them and it worked. Jim Murphy just repeated it in a loop, so did douglas Alexander, alistair darling, Johann lament, etc. No matter how hard yes tried, it was thrown back and it did cause a massive amount of uncertainty. No voters started to repeat it ad nauseam. Currency union gubbed us.

We need to be prepared next time and have an answer that doesn't rely on Westminster involvement or approval. Our own currency could be the answer.

Ps we might not need answers the next time cos the way things are going, Westminster and Cameron are doing all the work for us. Some no voters are regretting their decision already.....

[Brassrubber]

Keep insulting every region town age group and individuals who voted no until they change their minds - bound to work -not

[ULSTERSCOTAS]

Keep insulting every region town age group and individuals who voted no until they change their minds - bound to work -not

Aye that's about it and very succinctly put too.

More expansively, all my instinctive feelings about Salmond have been confirmed by his post referendum behaviour. He was very fond of blethering on about about the virtues of a 'team Scotland' approach after a yes vote (which in my opinion could only ever have been by a narrow margin), yet with a no vote (by a significant margin) he carries on as devisively as ever. He and many of his disciples on here are castigating everyone and everything rather than accepting that the case for independence was'nt made convincingly enough for the majority to vote for it. That is hardly surprising when you could'nt prise an open and honest answer out of him with a very sharp thing. The man is simply possessed with the notion of independence and is prepared to employ every slippery and manipulative device to get it. Thankfully though enough people rumbled him and he is now doing a good job of exposing himself as a hypocrite by not following his own suggestion regarding 'team Scotland'.