Strachan must stay thread

[andyD]

the "the group is over if we lose on tuesday" lot are being overly dramatic. if we lose on tuesday, we'll be ahead of slovakia. if you'd asked any of us before the matches started if we'd be happy to be ahead of slovakia after 3 games we're almost certainly have said yes. Sure, Lithuania will be 3 points ahead of us if we lose, but i don't think that's insurmountable. the way results have gone, with slovakia losing their opening 2, the group is suddenly very open and i dont think it's going to become clear who's going to be challenging for 2nd any time soon.

all that said.. i am becoming a bit worried about how we're playing under strachan. i like him he's a smart guy and his squads are pretty much on the money. but, we're not playing with urgency. if we saw anything at the euros it was that teams that are not that great can do well as long as they're organised and put in the work to press and pressure their opponent. our back line are not well organised, more often than not without the ball we don't put much pressure on the opponent, we seem to be very casual and careless in possession, often giving it away. there are basics. it's not about who's been picked or what formation we're playing, these are just basics that should be true with any players in any system. that's why worries me right now. this group is still very open and we can comforatbly finish 2nd still, probably even push england for 1st as they're rubbish as well, but we can't do it if we don't step our workrate up and earn it.

[Caledonian Craig]

15 minutes ago, andyD said:

the "the group is over if we lose on tuesday" lot are being overly dramatic. if we lose on tuesday, we'll be ahead of slovakia. if you'd asked any of us before the matches started if we'd be happy to be ahead of slovakia after 3 games we're almost certainly have said yes. Sure, Lithuania will be 3 points ahead of us if we lose, but i don't think that's insurmountable. the way results have gone, with slovakia losing their opening 2, the group is suddenly very open and i dont think it's going to become clear who's going to be challenging for 2nd any time soon.

all that said.. i am becoming a bit worried about how we're playing under strachan. i like him he's a smart guy and his squads are pretty much on the money. but, we're not playing with urgency. if we saw anything at the euros it was that teams that are not that great can do well as long as they're organised and put in the work to press and pressure their opponent. our back line are not well organised, more often than not without the ball we don't put much pressure on the opponent, we seem to be very casual and careless in possession, often giving it away. there are basics. it's not about who's been picked or what formation we're playing, these are just basics that should be true with any players in any system. that's why worries me right now. this group is still very open and we can comforatbly finish 2nd still, probably even push england for 1st as they're rubbish as well, but we can't do it if we don't step our workrate up and earn it.

I cannot disagree with much of that. 

 

We need to be up and at teams from the off (unlike Saturday and 'that match' in Georgia). As to the original point of Strachan must stay, well for now yes but that could change very quickly and I would say that if we get to a stage where qualification hopes are dead say three matches down the line then I don't think it is up for debate. Strachan will either walk or be punted. Problem I have just now is who the contenders to succeed him would be. Hardly, any Scots spring to mind and if we go down the foreign root again we could get a lame duck but whatever the case Strachan will be gone so big decisions to be made.

[Orraloon]

17 minutes ago, andyD said:

the "the group is over if we lose on tuesday" lot are being overly dramatic. if we lose on tuesday, we'll be ahead of slovakia. if you'd asked any of us before the matches started if we'd be happy to be ahead of slovakia after 3 games we're almost certainly have said yes. Sure, Lithuania will be 3 points ahead of us if we lose, but i don't think that's insurmountable. the way results have gone, with slovakia losing their opening 2, the group is suddenly very open and i dont think it's going to become clear who's going to be challenging for 2nd any time soon.

all that said.. i am becoming a bit worried about how we're playing under strachan. i like him he's a smart guy and his squads are pretty much on the money. but, we're not playing with urgency. if we saw anything at the euros it was that teams that are not that great can do well as long as they're organised and put in the work to press and pressure their opponent. our back line are not well organised, more often than not without the ball we don't put much pressure on the opponent, we seem to be very casual and careless in possession, often giving it away. there are basics. it's not about who's been picked or what formation we're playing, these are just basics that should be true with any players in any system. that's why worries me right now. this group is still very open and we can comforatbly finish 2nd still, probably even push england for 1st as they're rubbish as well, but we can't do it if we don't step our workrate up and earn it.

Do Lithuania get extra points if they beat Malta?

[andyD]

11 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Do Lithuania get extra points if they beat Malta?

Right enough! In the table in my head we'd lost on Saturday and they were on 4 points right now.
In reality the group is even more open than I thought. As things are right now it seems our qualification will be in our hands right down to the last game, away to Slovenia. Looks like a horrific fixture on current form. Fingers crossed we can make it not matter by finding our feet tomorrow night.

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, andyD said:

Right enough! In the table in my head we'd lost on Saturday and they were on 4 points right now.
In reality the group is even more open than I thought. As things are right now it seems our qualification will be in our hands right down to the last game, away to Slovenia. Looks like a horrific fixture on current form. Fingers crossed we can make it not matter by finding our feet tomorrow night.

I think you might well be right about that game being in the "not matter" category. 

[exile]

Not sure where to start. But I had horrible sinking feeling when Strachan said this was not a 'must win' game, sounded like the Levein days, almost getting his excuses in early, and heading for 4th place.

 

[Paulo2576]

I want to know what has happened to the style as much as anything. Away to Germany for much of the game and in particular the first hour away to Poland we were fantastic to watch, controlled possession that carried a threat, really thought Strachan was the man. Look at us now. The 1st half on Saturday was astoundingly bad from a footballing perspective. A style we all took delight in telling the Irish was what they were and we were a more sophisticated and cultured lot. Well at least they made it work! This on top of a brutal to watch display against Malta, on the back of 4 friendlies that surely confirmed us as one of the most ugly/turgid teams in Europe to watch. Drastic changes needed starting with at least acknowledging there's different formations out there! 

[dezmondo]

Ignoring results against Gibraltar and Malta, strachan has won 2 of our last 10 competitive matches. The last of them being 2 years ago......that's right, 2 years since we won a game against anyone of note.

His competitive record is around that of Berti Vogt's except Vogts in his only full campaign managed to beat the second seed home and away and draw with Germany.......with far inferior players at his disposal. 

Our lack of form is alarming. I'm happy to see how tonight goes but a defeat and it's time to move on.

[Orraloon]

11 minutes ago, dezmondo said:

Ignoring results against Gibraltar and Malta, strachan has won 2 of our last 10 competitive matches. The last of them being 2 years ago......that's right, 2 years since we won a game against anyone of note.

His competitive record is around that of Berti Vogt's except Vogts in his only full campaign managed to beat the second seed home and away and draw with Germany.......with far inferior players at his disposal. 

Our lack of form is alarming. I'm happy to see how tonight goes but a defeat and it's time to move on.

I think that under Strachan we have won a grand total of 4 competitive games. Gibraltar. Malta, Georgia and Ireland.

[ParisInAKilt]

Beat Croatia twice . . 

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, dezmondo said:

Ignoring results against Gibraltar and Malta, strachan has won 2 of our last 10 competitive matches. The last of them being 2 years ago......that's right, 2 years since we won a game against anyone of note.

That's fuggin atrocious indeed!

 

[jaggycolin]

We haven't qualified in 18 years. So it must, most definitely, be the current managers fault.

[ParisInAKilt]

52 minutes ago, jaggycolin said:

We haven't qualified in 18 years. So it must, most definitely, be the current managers fault.

It's his fault for making some odd selection decisions. Is he getting the best out of what's available? No. 

[andyD]

Who was the last manager to say "this is a must win game"? Outside of a situation where we actually needed to win or we were mathematically eliminated? Are we just beating Strachan up for doing exactly what every manager in the world would does?

And looking at it now, with the way the group is set up at the moment.. was it a must win game? Doesn't look like it to me. We're 2nd in the group, 4 points ahead of the team we expect to by vying for 2nd with come the end of qualification. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to be 6 points ahead of them, but did we expect to have a 4 point lead over them at this point? I don't think anyone here did. 3 was the best case scenario, with us winning 2 games and them losing to england. we're currently better than the best anyone would have expected. I know it sounds ridiculous, but that's how the group is right now. Calm down.. see what tonight brings. Of course I'd like to win, but a point will be a good result, it'll keep us 4 points clear of our rivals.

[ParisInAKilt]

We didn't start the game like it was a must win

[Guest BlueGaz]

On 09/10/2016 at 0:55 AM, Doric said:

Good man. we are a nation with no confidence. We voted to be ruled by our football enemies. what chances have we got ?

The English FA rule us?  

[ParisInAKilt]

Just now, BlueGaz said:

The English FA rule us?  

Would probably be an improvement 

[Guest BlueGaz]

Just now, ParisInAKilt said:

Would probably be an improvement 

Blatter for FM

[andyD]

9 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

We didn't start the game like it was a must win

No, we had a poor first half. It happens in football.
We did sort it out at half time and could have scored hat full.

Vaitkunas should have been off for the elbow in Robertson's face, leaving them with 10 for most of the game.
Paterson's header was an inch wide.
If Chris Martin goes to ground instead of trying to get on the end of Snoddy's cross then it's a stonewall pen.
Martin's header from Robertson's cross was also just past the post.
How Forrest missed and Martin didn't manage to get anything on it to deflect it in I don't know.
Griffiths should have buried the header, he was completely unmarked.
The final corner was utter chaos and it's a wonder it stayed out.
Throw in a couple of penalty shouts from Burke and Griffiths..
We did more than enough to win the game and were unfortunate to come away with only a point.

The result hurts a lot more than the performance, but given how the table now stands, with Slovakia on 0 points, then the result hurts a lot less. There were positives from the game.

[ParisInAKilt]

22 minutes ago, andyD said:

No, we had a poor first half. It happens in football.
We did sort it out at half time and could have scored hat full.

Vaitkunas should have been off for the elbow in Robertson's face, leaving them with 10 for most of the game.
Paterson's header was an inch wide.
If Chris Martin goes to ground instead of trying to get on the end of Snoddy's cross then it's a stonewall pen.
Martin's header from Robertson's cross was also just past the post.
How Forrest missed and Martin didn't manage to get anything on it to deflect it in I don't know.
Griffiths should have buried the header, he was completely unmarked.
The final corner was utter chaos and it's a wonder it stayed out.
Throw in a couple of penalty shouts from Burke and Griffiths..
We did more than enough to win the game and were unfortunate to come away with only a point.

The result hurts a lot more than the performance, but given how the table now stands, with Slovakia on 0 points, then the result hurts a lot less. There were positives from the game.

We had some chances but the performance wasn't that impressive, getting a bit fed up of Strachan's realiance on the one formation regardless of the opponents. He's right that we need at least 1 big result away from home but I can't see it happening. 

[andyD]

10 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

We had some chances but the performance wasn't that impressive, getting a bit fed up of Strachan's realiance on the one formation regardless of the opponents. He's right that we need at least 1 big result away from home but I can't see it happening. 

I'd definitely like to see us working harder from the first whistle. Too often we seem to start timid and it takes a goal against to kick us into a higher gear. That's a worry, for sure, as against better opposition 1 goal can be enough to see us off. I honestly think we were unlucky not to come out with the 3 points against lithuania tho, and that (combined with Slovakia's stumbling start) is why I'm not too worried that our qualification hopes have been too damaged. If ultimately we don't qualify it will be because of future results, not the lithuania game, it's still very much in our hands right now.

I hear what you're saying about WGS's adherence to 4231. Certainly in the home games against Malta, Lithuania and Slovenia I'd hoped we'd play 2 up and look to just win the game by putting the game beyond them. We seem overly cautious at times, but then then you only have 10 games in qualifying then fine margins matter. the odd goal here or there (like the Lithuania goal from their only real chance of the game) can have a massive impact, not necessarily on the campaign itself but certainly on fans perception of it. I don't know.. i guess when you hear Strachan saying things like 'we play scared football', which is entirely true, then I'd hope he'd be brave enough to set the team up to play brave football in the games that suit it.

[Tartacus]

I'm still supporting Strachan but should we lose the next 2 games it's difficult to make a case for him to remain. I watched the game with my Dad on Saturday and when the camera panned onto Strachan my Dad said, 'Get stripped off Gordon, you'd be better than any of your players.'.  If we somehow do manage to win tonight then that would surely be the end of Slovakia's chances of 2nd place?  

[scotlad]

12 hours ago, jaggycolin said:

We haven't qualified in 18 years. So it must, most definitely, be the current managers fault.

Exactly.  We have had 8 managers since we last qualified for a tournament (including caretakers) but the overall standard of player hasn't really improved over that period of time.  Some people don't seem to realise, or aren't willing to accept, that we are just a very average international football team.  In fairness so are Lithuania, but they are not so far behind us that Saturday's result ought to have been a complete shock.

[vanderark14]

3 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Exactly.  We have had 8 managers since we last qualified for a tournament (including caretakers) but the overall standard of player hasn't really improved over that period of time.  Some people don't seem to realise, or aren't willing to accept, that we are just a very average international football team.  In fairness so are Lithuania, but they are not so far behind us that Saturday's result ought to have been a complete shock.

we rank 73 places above them and have a decent record against them, we were/are a pot 3 side and they are pot 5. With the players at our disposal and the level they play at when compared to the Lithuania side, we should have beaten them.

[scotlad]

14 minutes ago, Tartacus said:

I'm still supporting Strachan but should we lose the next 2 games it's difficult to make a case for him to remain. I watched the game with my Dad on Saturday and when the camera panned onto Strachan my Dad said, 'Get stripped off Gordon, you'd be better than any of your players.'.  If we somehow do manage to win tonight then that would surely be the end of Slovakia's chances of 2nd place? 

3 defeats out of 3 and still to play England away?  Aye, it's highly likely they'd be f*cked if that happened.  They probably know that too, which is why I can't see us getting anything tonight (unless there are some massive ructions going on behind the scenes which are about to come to a head).