Post Indyref Reflection

[Lamia]

Posted this on FB but thought I might just post here too. I have been so touched by messages from people who voted Yes because of things I said and information I posted and I am so impressed with myself that I actually managed to do some canvassing which put me well outside my comfort zone. I have had such an amazing experience and was so devastated last Friday. But anyway......

Well it has been a week. I have spent the time trying to process everything and now am in a position to say how I feel without the high emotion of the immediate aftermath. Sorry for the length of the post but I have a lot to say – this is only half of it really.

I will start off by saying that I have had the best time of my life during this campaign, I have met so many people, learnt so much and done things I never thought I would have the confidence to do. It was absolutely fantastic to be a part of a truly inspiring campaign full of positive visions and hope for the future and how we could make a better society.

It is going to take me a long time to get over this because it has been such an integral part of my life. To be honest I thought all along it would be a No vote but that doesn’t stop me from being devastated that it was. The main reason for feeling so broken is really the way the campaigns were run. I felt such hope and saw the huge opportunities we had to make this country fairer and to break the stranglehold of the political and corporate establishment which holds all the power which was clearly seen throughout the campaign but the might of it was seen in all it’s glory in the last week.

The Yes Campaign was a bottom up movement which I witnessed grow. I have met a huge number of absolutely fantastic people the vast majority of whom had had no previous political involvement and the vast majority all had pretty much the same motivation and vision for Scotland. I spoke to no one who had based their decision to vote Yes because of their own personal circumstance. Every one bar none recognized that that in order to improve things for us all all the citizens need to be treated fairly and this isn’t happening and there is no chance it will under the current self-serving establishment. We all recognized that this a wealthy country but that wealth isn’t used to the benefit of us all and there is not a thing we can do to change that so long as the power stays where it is

Anyone involved could see the strength and determination and the sheer numbers of incredibly smart energised people who were itching to build a better society. I truly believe on Independent Scottish Government would have had an easy ride with this massive movement of people determined to get the society they wanted

So now for the other side and the reason I am so very angry and upset by the result. I will not mince my words the No Campaign used utterly despicable tactics. They spent the entire campaign trying to scare everyone. Even Blair McDougall who ran their campaign admits that they risked losing if they didn’t try to scare people. So if they thought they couldn’t win by telling us how good the UK was or what they would do to fix the things that weren’t so good does that not tell people something.

Tying to scare people is bad enough in itself but what was utterly contemptible was the large scale co-ordinated campaign of lies to the Eastern European community and pensioners. To tell people that they will be deported if there is a Yes vote or tell pensioners they will lose their pensions when the exact opposite has been guaranteed by the DWP is just sickening. I can categorically say that if there were any lies being told by the Yes campaign this was not co-ordinated, or a deliberate attempt to knowingly lie. One final point when it comes to despicable key messages coming from the No Campaign were the claims being made those who voted Yes were in some way disrespecting the War dead. This was a shameful claim and an insult to all those who lost their lives both from other countries who fought alongside ours and those who died who actually supported independence for Scotland.

Then we have their attempt to smear and demonise the Yes Campaign which came right from the top. I could list off examples of intimidation and shocking behaviour by the No Campaign (I have personal experience of it too) which they tried to ignore and rarely condemned. It did not get anywhere near the same coverage as the bad behaviour on the Yes side so people believed it was all one way.

I never wanted it to become a tit for tat argument about who was worse – that is playground behaviour. The point was it was a small minority on both sides and I know for a fact that the Yes Campaign was an inclusive, friendly, intelligent, hope-filled campaign full of fantastic ideas and amazing people and I am sickened by the No Campaign’s attempt to demonise all of these fantastic people.

I know that I can hold my head high and be proud of the campaign I was a part of I also know that if I had been a part of the No Campaign I couldn’t do this. So we lost the referendum but we won in so many other ways and for that I am exceptionally proud.

A lot of people expressed disappointment and sometimes anger at those who voted No. I have spent a long time thinking about how I feel about those who did and I do not feel anger or disappointment with anyone who spent time doing their own research into all the arguments and decided as a result that they would vote No. I also don’t feel anger towards anyone who doesn’t have internet access because it would have been just about impossible to get the information needed without it. Those I am angry and disappointed with are those who did not engage at all and did no research into all the information that both sides put forward. This was too important for that.

Now to the future. Throughout the campaign there were attempts to shut down the debate and these continue with demands for us all to shut up about it now and move on because the majority have spoken. But when is it right to be told to stop expressing your opinion because you are in a minority. We believe what we were campaigning for is right so we should continue. We should also get involved in anything that puts pressure on the government to make the social changes we think are needed and also to demand Home Rule for Scotland as promised.

I still haven’t come close to being fully recovered and still fell pretty low but I am so encouraged that all those people who worked so tirelessly over the 2 years are still so eager to stay involved. I was so heartened that around 300 turned up to meet to discuss the way forward in Aberdeen. This is so precious and to all the people who said there shouldn’t be a referendum at all I hope they are now admitting how wrong they were. We have come so far and I am looking forward to seeing where the journey takes us now.

[mariokempes56]

It'll come and sooner than you think. I've been an emotional wreck but now is the time to stand up and keep fighting.

My biggest scare last week was that I might not see it in my lifetime, now I know I will.

[HIGHTOWER 1314]

Well said lamia keep your chin up our time will come

[ronaldhinos dentist]

Well said. The no vote has only made us stronger and more determined. It will come, we just need to be patient.

[scoobydoo]

It was almost worth it to see wee burnies face when the boy told her that her political life had been a failure.

[Flora MaDonald]

I'm just done and off. Thanks my fellow citizens - laughing stock of a big world. Ciao.

[jockodile]

Despite the 45 coincidence the solidarity since the ref is clearly no Jacobites at Ruthven when the Prince said it was over.

This is not over. We are on a motorway to indy without exits, timing is the only uncertainty.

Next ref, and it will come, needs to win, and win with a good margin.

All of us can help achieve that.

[jockodile]

For those unfamiliar with Ruthven reference it was the Jacobite army post Culloden. Although the battle was decisive nearly three quarters of the army remained. It could have fought on, it had trimuphed in 2 out of 3 battles and lost primarily due to bad ground and sheer exhaustion in Drumossie.

Losing hope and direction however was the true winner for Cumberland, not the fallen on the moor.

This is where we differ

[jumbocummings]

No one is laughing at Scotland except in spite. Most global citizens have learned something in the last few weeks. Scotland has actually become stronger. Looking at things in the proper perspective of the long term, like what happens in history, is how this should be perceived. The Independence movement has grown stronger. It is mainstream. Anyone laughing, or thinking others are, hasn't got Scotland's interests at heartand and is also ignorant.

[Toepoke]

We're blazing a trail here. No part of a modern G-20 nation has managed to form a separate state yet. It was never going to be a smooth process...

[scoobydoo]

Last week the chance and too many people shat it.

[jockodile]

That sadly is correct scooby but it is there to be won and won it will be.

Self proclaimed 'Proud' scots who voted no will have 1 chance to redeem themselves. A 2nd no would end Scotland's psuedo country status indefinitely.

Timing is everything

[AbductedbyAliens]

No one is laughing at Scotland except in spite. Most global citizens have learned something in the last few weeks. Scotland has actually become stronger. Looking at things in the proper perspective of the long term, like what happens in history, is how this should be perceived. The Independence movement has grown stronger. It is mainstream. Anyone laughing, or thinking others are, hasn't got Scotland's interests at heartand and is also ignorant.

Nah your wrong on the 'global view' part.

People dont look at scotland very much at all (in fact this is the only time it makes headlines) and when they did last week, they look on with complete bemusement as why a rich country wouldnt want to run itself. There bemused as well, because there media reports the facts with no bias on things like currency, pensions etc, so they dont understand.

They dont 'laugh' per se, but they do wonder what is wrong with 55% of the populace.

[weekevie04]

Nah your wrong on the 'global view' part.

People dont look at scotland very much at all (in fact this is the only time it makes headlines) and when they did last week, they look on with complete bemusement as why a rich country wouldnt want to run itself. There bemused as well, because there media reports the facts with no bias on things like currency, pensions etc, so they dont understand.

They dont 'laugh' per se, but they do wonder what is wrong with 55% of the populace.

Had a few emails and messages from pals abroad. Mostly supportive and wishing me and us hurt by the vote well. No laughs as such, but imagine like many in their own company probably more pity aimed for us than laughter.

I am now suffering the opposite of the cringe. I'm sure it will pass and it's just time, but hearing so much shite on tv at the Ryder Cup about proud Scots who respect golf traditions, kilts, and so on and so on. Never felt so much dejection or cinge at clocking the Saltire whenever it pops up at the moment.

I hope and sure this will pass though.

[Return of Yermaw]

Nah your wrong on the 'global view' part.

People dont look at scotland very much at all (in fact this is the only time it makes headlines) and when they did last week, they look on with complete bemusement as why a rich country wouldnt want to run itself. There bemused as well, because there media reports the facts with no bias on things like currency, pensions etc, so they dont understand.

They dont 'laugh' per se, but they do wonder what is wrong with 55% of the populace.

I agree - when someone or other bemoans our football for example, they normally follow it up with "we are the laughing stock of Europe". Nobody however outside these borders care.

As for Lamia's great post, one other point I would make and not sure where it sits in the wider reflection is that I agree the NO campaign was vile. As someone who would have potentially lost their job through a YES vote, the conduct and scaremongering message of BT was one of the reasons I voted YES. However I imagine a lot of people also voted YES because of the BT campaign - I wonder to what extent that balanced against those who believed their scaremongering and voted NO. Their vile campaign seemed to me to have two converse outcomes.

[tomtscotland]

Well said Lamia - I'm sure your thoughts would be echoed by Yes campaigners throughout the country.

It was real eye-opener to me to see the contrast between the two sides. It is so disappointing to see the enthusiastic, informed,positive, visionary folks stymied by others whose minds seem closed to any possibility for change and seeing a better future. Unfortunately, closed minds are just that - not open to persuasion and easy to keep that way by scare stories and brainwashing msm.

[weekevie04]

I agree - when someone or other bemoans our football for example, they normally follow it up with "we are the laughing stock of Europe". Nobody however outside these borders care.

As for Lamia's great post, one other point I would make and not sure where it sits in the wider reflection is that I agree the NO campaign was vile. As someone who would have potentially lost their job through a YES vote, the conduct and scaremongering message of BT was one of the reasons I voted YES. However I imagine a lot of people also voted YES because of the BT campaign - I wonder to what extent that balanced against those who believed their scaremongering and voted NO. Their vile campaign seemed to me to have two converse outcomes.

Forgot to add Lamia's post is terrific. I hope she continues back in supporting Devo Max/Home Rule like many of us are now aiming for.

And agree also regards the ''laughing stock'' comment. Nobody cares at all. Just like when I seen Lech Poznan were knocked out by Stjarnan lat month in the Europa League, I was surprised by it, but didn't laugh or think any less or more of Polish football.

[Alibi]

Great first post. We'll be back...

[King Of Paisley]

Great post Lamia. Like many, I was devastated at last weeks outcome. Angry, bewildered, frustrated, you name it, I was it! However, I feel I am over the worst and now trying to take the positives such as the massive upturn in membership in the SNP and the complete constitutional mess that the Westminster parties have got themselves into. And the fact that Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire (traditional Labour heartlands) voted Yes. I take that as a sign that these areas are heartily sick of Scottish Labour.

Deep down I didn't think we would do it first time round, but certain things this week tell me we will get another serious crack at this sooner than we think. But we must ensure that we learn lessons and ensure that our message is more robust and convincing than ever second time round. Yes there is the question of the state machine being clunked into action and spreading their web of scaremongering and lies, but are the Scottish electorate daft enough to fall for it hook line and sinker a second time round?

[Jonny]

It'll come and sooner than you think. I've been an emotional wreck but now is the time to stand up and keep fighting.

My biggest scare last week was that I might not see it in my lifetime, now I know I will.

Spot on. A slight delay to the inevitable.

My folks are in their late 60s and have been total Yessers, engaged and active. In town meetings, marches, with their pals and on twitter, they've done all they could for a Yes. One of the many reasons I wanted a Yes was for them, so that they could see it happen, thinking there wouldn't be time enough for them to see the next yin in the event of a No.

Now I know they will see it.

[Jonny]

Great post Lamia. Like many, I was devastated at last weeks outcome. Angry, bewildered, frustrated, you name it, I was it! However, I feel I am over the worst and now trying to take the positives such as the massive upturn in membership in the SNP and the complete constitutional mess that the Westminster parties have got themselves into. And the fact that Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire (traditional Labour heartlands) voted Yes. I take that as a sign that these areas are heartily sick of Scottish Labour.

Deep down I didn't think we would do it first time round, but certain things this week tell me we will get another serious crack at this sooner than we think. But we must ensure that we learn lessons and ensure that our message is more robust and convincing than ever second time round. Yes there is the question of the state machine being clunked into action and spreading their web of scaremongering and lies, but are the Scottish electorate daft enough to fall for it hook line and sinker a second time round?

Pretty much agree with everything you've said.

In terms of combatting the 'State machine', there are a lot of interesting things starting to happen now. ReferendumTV is going to continue, rebranding as 'Broadcasting Scotland'. Derek Bateman and Newsnet are combining into a new media company. Jack Foster (of Scotland yet) is going to start a new News channel. These will all rely on crowd funding but if you simply cancel your BBC licence and give it to them instead, that will go a long way to ensuring we have an accessible and transparent analysis and news feed on what is happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yx9sDcmpaNM

This can only grow as much as we want it to. Pass it on and make sure we get this.

[Hertsscot]

Great post Lamia. There are many of this board who, like yourself, have done a lot more than I have. Down south all I could do was contribute financially but last Friday I felt empty, devestated by the No vote. I guess the 45% of those who voted Yes, and others like me who didn't get a vote but dearly wished for a Yes, have felt a lot of things since. One of the emotions you mention is anger and I think it is a very legitimate feeling not so much because of the result but because of the way the No campaign was conducted. Such anger though needs to be channelled carefully, I can only speak for myself but I know the very negative thoughts and feelings i've had towards unionist friends of mine.

There are some who knew damn well what they were doing when they voted No and voted purely for selfish reasons, "I'm alright Jock" and to hell with the rest of you. But we must not reject those who voted No who were swayed by the vague panicked promises of greater powers, or who genuinely believed that No was the best way to create a better, fairer Scotland. I fundamentally agree with their aspiration whilst fundamentally disagreeing about how that is likely to be achieved.

We do have every right to be angry with what has happened, there are some politicians who we should never trust again, there are some media outlets that we should never trust again let alone buy from, but we cannot reject those who voted otherwise, they are our friends, our families, our workmates, our fellow fans. We need them, not just to to gain an independent Scotland but to build a better one.

I have been very encouraged by the initial reaction to the referendum result, the funding of tv channels, the growth in the membership of the Greens and SNP, etc. No doubt there is the need for leadership to continue a broad based campaign for greater powers for Scotland and we need to lessons from what has been a painful setback . What we cannot do is write off whole cities (Edinburgh, Aberdeen) or whole sections of the population (over 55s), let our anger be reserved for the politicans and business leaders who lied to us and let our anger be focussed on a media that was more than happy to spread lies and fear. And let that anger result in positive actions, keeping up the Yes campaign, holding politicians to account and getting a media which is more honest. Thanks again Lamia for your thoughts. Remember the WM elite would like nothing more than for us just to walk away and go back to business as usual, that's the one thing we're not doing.

[ParisInAKilt]

Like everyone I was devastated last weekend but gradually gotten over it (as much as you can ) this week and reading all the things happening has helped the most.

[exile]

Great post Lamia. There are many of this board who, like yourself, have done a lot more than I have. Down south all I could do was contribute financially but last Friday I felt empty, devestated by the No vote. I guess the 45% of those who voted Yes, and others like me who didn't get a vote but dearly wished for a Yes, have felt a lot of things since. One of the emotions you mention is anger and I think it is a very legitimate feeling not so much because of the result but because of the way the No campaign was conducted. Such anger though needs to be channelled carefully, I can only speak for myself but I know the very negative thoughts and feelings i've had towards unionist friends of mine.

There are some who knew damn well what they were doing when they voted No and voted purely for selfish reasons, "I'm alright Jock" and to hell with the rest of you. But we must not reject those who voted No who were swayed by the vague panicked promises of greater powers, or who genuinely believed that No was the best way to create a better, fairer Scotland. I fundamentally agree with their aspiration whilst fundamentally disagreeing about how that is likely to be achieved.

We do have every right to be angry with what has happened, there are some politicians who we should never trust again, there are some media outlets that we should never trust again let alone buy from, but we cannot reject those who voted otherwise, they are our friends, our families, our workmates, our fellow fans. We need them, not just to to gain an independent Scotland but to build a better one.

I have been very encouraged by the initial reaction to the referendum result, the funding of tv channels, the growth in the membership of the Greens and SNP, etc. No doubt there is the need for leadership to continue a broad based campaign for greater powers for Scotland and we need to lessons from what has been a painful setback . What we cannot do is write off whole cities (Edinburgh, Aberdeen) or whole sections of the population (over 55s), let our anger be reserved for the politicans and business leaders who lied to us and let our anger be focussed on a media that was more than happy to spread lies and fear. And let that anger result in positive actions, keeping up the Yes campaign, holding politicians to account and getting a media which is more honest. Thanks again Lamia for your thoughts. Remember the WM elite would like nothing more than for us just to walk away and go back to business as usual, that's the one thing we're not doing.

Great post

If Yes is to progress it must embrace the 'not yes yet nos', and not demonise them. Also to understand some of the reasons of being scared off not just being about 'selfish' on a personal level but some genuinely feared the whole economy would go down the pan, what with jobs and cash possibly flowing south, and working out what it would take to turn a heart-yes head-no into a vote yes.

For me the biggest revelation was the behaviour of the media. Any political campaign can have lies, smears, argy-bargy, and 'empty promises and empty threats'. What was outstanding was the scale and one-sidedness of media onslaught against the Yes side, not just the scare stories and the demonisation of Salmond and of 'intimidating' Yes supporters, but a general ignorance of the Scottish debate, general lack of scrutiny and questioning of pro-British propaganda, ignoring of what was happening on the ground during the campaign, and even seeming to suppress positive stories that people could see with their own eyes but not reflected in TV or press. Also, how normally rational liberal broadsheet newspapers suddenly became like the Daily Mail for weeks, stirring up vile 'fear and loathing' while accusing the Yes side of it. Above all is the sense of denial - which is ongoing - that there was any bias. But the mask has slipped - this will not be forgotten.

Edited September 27, 2014 by exile

[phil]

Yes, good post Lamia, admire your spirit but disagree with most of what you are saying. The NO campaign was more inept that anything. Conspiracy theories about the evil establishment spreading lies and malice are pretty ridiculous frankly. 'They', if they exist, are not that smart. If they were there wouldn't have been a referendum in the first place, or certainly not on Salmond's terms. Reality check time: Salmond excluded 800,000 expats, which was scandalous, but I kind of almost admire him for it. He knew he had a battle on his hands and had to pull every stroke possible to pull it off. At the end of the day he is a politician, and a pretty crafty one. Point is, he obviously felt the expats were likely to vote no. He was probably right, they mostly fitted the profile of NO voters. Had they voted, and voted predominantly NO, the 45 could have been closer to the 40 or even the high 30s, and that would probably have been the end of the independence story. As for scare stories, well, plenty of big hitters with no connection to the NO campaign weighed in in agreement with the fears on the economy, and let's face it, big Alex's economic plan was utter pish. If he had had a better plan he might have pulled it off. And the Yes side were making up their own scarey stuff too - evil Tory plan plan to privatise the NHS? Er, plausible, but unfortunately, not possible. Bottom line, beware the Mannichaean impulse to divide the world into blocks of pure good and pure evil. Nationalism encourages that, and it's a sweet seductive message, 'we wuz robbed!', but the truth is always more complicated.

Edited September 27, 2014 by phil