Timewasting Players In The Youth Teams

[ErsatzThistle]

A few days ago Cameron Burgess ditched us for Australia after playing a number of Under 19 games for us.

In the last several years we've seen players turn out for us at Under 17 and Under 19 level but also at under 21s in Pearce's case, only for all of these guys to say get lost to us: James Henry, Sam Gallagher and Matt Targett went to England. Alex Pearce went to Ireland. Fraser Aird to Canada. Jackson Irvine and now Cameron Burgess have gone to Australia.

Any I've missed out ?

Whilst I recognise FIFA allows for changes in nationality I just don't understand why when we're recruiting these lads for Scotland's under age teams no-one at the SFA asks them the question "If your native country (England, Australia...) was to call you up, would you accept it ?". If the answer to the latter is yes or "I'd have to think about it." we should walk away there and then. If a lad says he only ever wants to play for Scotland then great !

It just really winds me up when this happens because they are taking the place of other young players who would run a million miles just to represent Scotland at any level, not to menion wasting their coaches time. Grrr.

Rant over.

[MadridTA]

in a sort of related anecodote, Spain capped Munir the other night, he's only played two games for Barcelona but as he has a Moroccan parent he was brought on as a sub and is now tied to Spain...did the same with Bojan too. What I mean by this is, many countries do it in order to tie someone down.

from the players' point of view it's a risk..I don't ever envisage Bojan playing international football again, whereas if he'd picked Serbia he'd probably have 50 caps by now.

[wanderer]

Apparently we have also lost Charlie Gilmour also, as he turned out for England v Belgium few weeks back.

Not seen it confirmed yet, but Mackenzie Heaney has had a change of heart and switched back to us after reports he had accepted a England call up.

Apparently Scott Gemmill named another non-Scottish born Chelsea lad in his U17 squad yesterday.

[ErsatzThistle]

What level did Gilmour play at for us, Wanderer ?

Fair play to Heaney if he is sticking with us.

I'm beginning to think we should just call a halt to searching for players outside of Scotland unless the players themselves or aclub coach puts them forward for international selection. We're being taken for a ride too often by these chancers that the SFA scouts have uncovered.

[wanderer]

What level did Gilmour play at for us, Wanderer ?

U16'ish I think, and was apparently viewed as a prize catch as a lot of Scouts talk about him going all the way in his career.

[er yir macaroon]

We might lose Tony Watt if we're not careful. I believe Burgess is going to turn out ti be a good player. He grew up in Aberdeen till he was 11. He probably just wants to visit his mum and dad after his home games.

[PASTA Mick]

We're talking about a handful. Most will do nothing in the game anyway.

I think spreading the net is the right tactic even if some end up switching.

[Squirrelhumper]

Here's a novel idea. Don't chase after players who've got next to no desire to play for us. Half them will never have stepped foot in Scotland.

[noctonjock]

Charlie Gilmour played in last season,s victory shield and is on Arsenals books so thought he might be quite decent

[PASTA Mick]

Here's a novel idea. Don't chase after players who've got next to no desire to play for us. Half them will never have stepped foot in Scotland.

If you call them up and they come, how can you say they have no desire?

Impossible to tell until they get another offer.

[JECK]

aye gilmour the lad at arsenal with the scottish dad? remember him in the victory shield as you could literally hear his screams through the telly as he must of been the only who's voice hadn't broke yet.

[ParisInAKilt]

Something we will have to accept when we pick players eligible for other countries. Few players are like fans, they will accept call ups even if their heart / head is with another national team.

Burgess was brought up in Australia, only natural he would want to represent them and almost guaranteed the chance to play in a World Cup.

[er yir macaroon]

Burgess was brought up in Australia, only natural he would want to represent them and almost guaranteed the chance to play in a World Cup.

From age 11, he's only 18.

[bookerman]

Burgess was brought up in Australia, only natural he would want to represent them and almost guaranteed the chance to play in a World Cup.

From age 11, he's only 18.

Yeah and going by his bio he moved to fulham in 2011, So he not exactly spent to much time in Australia. Think it more than likely he just fancies his chances of going to more world cups with Australia than us.

[ParisInAKilt]

From age 11, he's only 18.

His entire adolescence almost

Sure he said in an interview before his last call up that he felt Australian or similar.

[ErsatzThistle]

Totally understand what was previously posted about how if we look at players born in England or Australia then we will get some that jump ship.

The problem I have is that as of late it seems to be happening rather a lot. Frankly, it also makes us look a bit pathetic if we're trying hard to find these players and they only stay with us for a year or two before saying "thanks for the free training facilities and practice matches Jock, but I want to play for England now !".

When I control Scotland from behind closed doors like Dr Mabuse then I'll bloody well force the SFA to choose one of my two strategies.

1: When the SFA make initial contact with eligible players from outside of Scotland, try and "trip them up". Ask them "If you got a all up for England Under 19s, would you accept it ?". If the answer to that is "Yes" or "I'd have to think about it if I'm honest.". Leave them well alone, we should drop our interest there and then. If they outright declare for Scotland then fantastic, welcome aboard and good luck.

2: Players born outwith Scotland will still be picked naturally. However, rather than actively looking for them we make it clear that it's up to individual players themselves to contact the SFA and declare for us. Their club managers, coaches, media reps can easily get in touch with the SFA for them.

Or alternatively FIFA can sort the whole thing out by creating a new resolution that makes players declare their true nationality once and for all at the age of say eighteen or nineteen. After that a player cannot switch at all except in extraordinary circumstances, such as what happened to Tim Cahill.

Feel free to tear it to shreds, it's only an idea

[Third Lanark]

A few days ago Cameron Burgess ditched us for Australia after playing a number of Under 19 games for us.

In the last several years we've seen players turn out for us at Under 17 and Under 19 level but also at under 21s in Pearce's case, only for all of these guys to say get lost to us: James Henry, Sam Gallagher and Matt Targett went to England. Alex Pearce went to Ireland. Fraser Aird to Canada. Jackson Irvine and now Cameron Burgess have gone to Australia.

Any I've missed out ?

Whilst I recognise FIFA allows for changes in nationality I just don't understand why when we're recruiting these lads for Scotland's under age teams no-one at the SFA asks them the question "If your native country (England, Australia...) was to call you up, would you accept it ?". If the answer to the latter is yes or "I'd have to think about it." we should walk away there and then. If a lad says he only ever wants to play for Scotland then great !

It just really winds me up when this happens because they are taking the place of other young players who would run a million miles just to represent Scotland at any level, not to menion wasting their coaches time. Grrr.

Rant over.

That's not a rant, you're spot on. Get them to commit at 18. Then we can start to develop them. Gallagher and Targett may regret it as they likely will never play for England.

[Tartan blood]

Totally understand what was previously posted about how if we look at players born in England or Australia then we will get some that jump ship.

The problem I have is that as of late it seems to be happening rather a lot. Frankly, it also makes us look a bit pathetic if we're trying hard to find these players and they only stay with us for a year or two before saying "thanks for the free training facilities and practice matches Jock, but I want to play for England now !".

When I control Scotland from behind closed doors like Dr Mabuse then I'll bloody well force the SFA to choose one of my two strategies.

1: When the SFA make initial contact with eligible players from outside of Scotland, try and "trip them up". Ask them "If you got a all up for England Under 19s, would you accept it ?". If the answer to that is "Yes" or "I'd have to think about it if I'm honest.". Leave them well alone, we should drop our interest there and then. If they outright declare for Scotland then fantastic, welcome aboard and good luck.

2: Players born outwith Scotland will still be picked naturally. However, rather than actively looking for them we make it clear that it's up to individual players themselves to contact the SFA and declare for us. Their club managers, coaches, media reps can easily get in touch with the SFA for them.

Or alternatively FIFA can sort the whole thing out by creating a new resolution that makes players declare their true nationality once and for all at the age of say eighteen or nineteen. After that a player cannot switch at all except in extraordinary circumstances, such as what happened to Tim Cahill.

Feel free to tear it to shreds, it's only an idea

I agree with all of that.

The thing is, the home nations agreement about having to be schooled here for 5 years may well have to be revisited as in 2 weeks time we might not be classified as a UK country.

The rule may actually get slacker in that scenario. And we'll end up getting the likes of Nacho Novo and Didier Agathe trying to apply for us again

[Hertsscot]

I agree with Ersatz Thistle that this seems to be getting more of a problem. It's also one that has affected Northern Ireland losing players to the Republic. I think part of it might be success, England have been more successful than we have in recent years (at least they qualify) and same with the Republic over their smaller neighbours. I also wonder if there is an issue that our diaspora is not as strong as it once was. I had several mates who would have been eligible to play for both England and Scotland when we were younger, there was never any doubt that we considered our allegiance was to Scotland even if we hadn't been born there or one parent was English etc. I think those of Scottish descent nowadays don't do that as much, people of Irish descent seem to me to be much more likely to be proud of their heritage whereas for some of us the cringe sets in and at some level that might actually have to do with the fact that the Republic is an independent country and we aren't. All very anecdotal In know but it's my perception and I don't know how usual it is.

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

I agree with Ersatz Thistle that this seems to be getting more of a problem. It's also one that has affected Northern Ireland losing players to the Republic. I think part of it might be success, England have been more successful than we have in recent years (at least they qualify) and same with the Republic over their smaller neighbours. I also wonder if there is an issue that our diaspora is not as strong as it once was. I had several mates who would have been eligible to play for both England and Scotland when we were younger, there was never any doubt that we considered our allegiance was to Scotland even if we hadn't been born there or one parent was English etc. I think those of Scottish descent nowadays don't do that as much, people of Irish descent seem to me to be much more likely to be proud of their heritage whereas for some of us the cringe sets in and at some level that might actually have to do with the fact that the Republic is an independent country and we aren't. All very anecdotal In know but it's my perception and I don't know how usual it is.

not really anectdotal ; more like utter bollocks

[ErsatzThistle]

Cheers for the vote of confidence lads

Aye the home nations rule could get really messy if we vote Aye next week. No idea how they'd re-write it.

Did Didier Agathe genuinely want to play for us ? Before he was capped for England, Berti genuinely tried to find out if Alan Thompson was eligible for us

Vividly remember from years ago, my cousin saying that Bobo Balde was going to play for Scotland

[Hertsscot]

not really anectdotal ; more like utter bollocks

Fair enough as I said it was a perception based on people I knew

[Tartan blood]

Cheers for the vote of confidence lads

Aye the home nations rule could get really messy if we vote Aye next week. No idea how they'd re-write it.

Did Didier Agathe genuinely want to play for us ? Before he was capped for England, Berti genuinely tried to find out if Alan Thompson was eligible for us

Vividly remember from years ago, my cousin saying that Bobo Balde was going to play for Scotland

I'm not sure why Balde would choose Scotland, he was playing for Guinea fairly early on. His dilemma was whether to hold out for France or not, I think.

I remember Lorenzo Amoruso and a few other old firm players from countries that they would never be capped in, either being asked or showing an interest. E.g Novo -Spain, Agathe - France, Amoruso - Italy.

Can you imagine the uproar on this forum if one of those people pulled on the jersey!

[ibelieve!!!]

Cheers for the vote of confidence lads

Aye the home nations rule could get really messy if we vote Aye next week. No idea how they'd re-write it.

How? We'd just stop been part of it (in 18 months time). We'd only be able to play those eligible under the same rules that apply to all other countries. The home nation rule keeps applying to England, Northern Ireland and Wales.

[zahana-oni]

If we voted yes then the gentleman's agreement would cease to apply to Scotland from 2016 once a new Scottish passport was in place.

From then on there are positives and negatives involved. Negatives would be that any player playing in Scotland for 3 years or more (regardless of nationality) will be eligible for a Scottish passport and therefore for the national team so your Nacho Novos/Amorusos etc

Positives are that (I think) youngsters who qualify through grandparent rule (for example all the youngsters in England) would need to decide at a young age whether to switch to a Scottish passport in order to play for the youth teams.