Only Me?

[Return of Yermaw]

"We would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened" - God, another war argument. Someone who seemingly perceives Scottish nationalism as ugly and jingoistic but British nationalism as fine. No voters are littered with such hypocrisies. You could make a drinking game our of it:

1. Labour scoffing at the Yes campaign re hypothetical and uncertain scenarios yet tell us if to stay together as they will win the next election.......

2. iScotland will lose EU membership yet ignoring the upcoming Tory referendum

3. UKIP criticising the Yes campaign for being xenophobic

4. Independence will create borders. Who is going to put up a border?

5. Afore mentioned nationalism reference

6. "It's for the people of Scotland to decide" as yet another HMG "research" is released follows by a Cabinet Minister's visit to Scotland in the back of it.

7. Being told iScotland couldn't afford to deal with a financial meltdown by persons who liberalised City banking and financial regulations thus deeping the affects of the banking crisis across the UK.

Any more??

[Guest Extreme0]

Suffer Together

Because some Brits can't get it in to their heads the difference between Cultural/Geographical Identity and Political Identity.

[neilser]

Certainly, basically I hate nationalism. I hate all the 'them' and 'us' stuff that this referendum has generated. I have friends from all over the UK and just hate the thought of us cutting ourselves off from the rest of Britain. I have always seen the home countries as like four brothers, all with distinct personalities, but with far more in common than differences. We get on each other's nerves, have fierce rivalries, make fun of each other, but, at the end of the day, we would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened. Sad that people want to throw that away. In addition, I don't believe a single word Alex Salmon and Nichola Sturgeon say. I truly believe they are more interested in Scotland becoming independent than Scotland being independent. As Salmond's biographer said, 'It's all about winning with Alex'. They will promise anything to get a Yes vote and have not demonstrated that they have a clear idea of how an independent Scotland would work in practice. It could genuinely be disastrous, and people need to think very carefully before they sign up for such an ill-thought through proposition. And no, I don't believe the statements coming out from the No campaign either but then I don't have to - I have lived in the union for nearly 50 years. I know what it's like. Is rule from Westminster perfect? Absolutely not. There are no end of ways we could improve things but I would rather see us attempt that than go down the independent route.

We're a nation. We're one of the oldest nations in the world. We predate most other nations, including the United States, Germany and Italy, by centuries. This is not about nationalism, as we're already a nation. It's about whether the nation of Scotland should remain in a political union that, despite enduring for 300 years, represents a relatively short period in our history.

If you think that it's about whether you like the personalities in one camp or the other you've not grasped what this is about. We'll be no more cut off from the rest of the UK than we are at present from the Republic of Ireland. Social interaction depends far more on things like geography, infrastructure and travel times than whether one nation is in union with another - look at Norway and Sweden. Are they cut off from each other? What's been thrown away by their separation? Nothing's getting thrown away in a social sense but we will at least get the government we vote for, which will be accountable to the Scottish people and the Scottish people alone every few years.

Edited September 4, 2014 by neilser

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Night, Phil...

[peever1745]

Troll allert or journo looking for some abuse. Well here we go.Your just a no hoper, bounder and total cahd to boot.

[ErsatzThistle]

Fair play to Eddie Izzard for coming on to the TAMB in one last ditch attempt to save the union.

[EddardStark]

To be honest I dont think many yessers give a second thought regarding the risks of what could happen post independence. Thats not what drives them. Pride before a fall and all that. Not only that I dont think OP's contribution in this thread is a troll either. Its from the heart. People need to think long and hard about their choice. However if its a Yes vote then we should ensure we all work towards it being a success. I am concerned as we move towards to end game the Yes campaign of turned this into a party political debate. Their shamless courting of the labour vote gives many of those false hope that the head in the sand state hand out/support structures in scotland will continue under post independence. It wont.

[johnnie x]

Risk is the most overused word by the BT campaign, its meant to be a scare folk. Oooooohhh thats risky.

Risk / Reward

Risk or Opportunity.

They cant even acknowledge the other side of the equation exists (which makes them illogical).

[EvilScotsman]

To be honest I dont think many yessers give a second thought regarding the risks of what could happen post independence. Thats not what drives them. Pride before a fall and all that. Not only that I dont think OP's contribution in this thread is a troll either. Its from the heart. People need to think long and hard about their choice. However if its a Yes vote then we should ensure we all work towards it being a success. I am concerned as we move towards to end game the Yes campaign of turned this into a party political debate. Their shamless courting of the labour vote gives many of those false hope that the head in the sand state hand out/support structures in scotland will continue under post independence. It wont.

The vast majority of the welfare budget (excluding pensions) is spent on people who're in work. Why is that?

Could it possibly be to do with the economic policy of the Westminster government?

[Betty]

"We would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened" - God, another war argument. Someone who seemingly perceives Scottish nationalism as ugly and jingoistic but British nationalism as fine. No voters are littered with such hypocrisies. You could make a drinking game our of it:

1. Labour scoffing at the Yes campaign re hypothetical and uncertain scenarios yet tell us if to stay together as they will win the next election.......

2. iScotland will lose EU membership yet ignoring the upcoming Tory referendum

3. UKIP criticising the Yes campaign for being xenophobic

4. Independence will create borders. Who is going to put up a border?

5. Afore mentioned nationalism reference

6. "It's for the people of Scotland to decide" as yet another HMG "research" is released follows by a Cabinet Minister's visit to Scotland in the back of it.

7. Being told iScotland couldn't afford to deal with a financial meltdown by persons who liberalised City banking and financial regulations thus deeping the affects of the banking crisis across the UK.

Any more??

Sorry, too good - had to borrow it.

[RenfrewBlue]

To be honest I dont think many yessers give a second thought regarding the risks of what could happen post independence. Thats not what drives them. Pride before a fall and all that. Not only that I dont think OP's contribution in this thread is a troll either. Its from the heart. People need to think long and hard about their choice. However if its a Yes vote then we should ensure we all work towards it being a success. I am concerned as we move towards to end game the Yes campaign of turned this into a party political debate. Their shamless courting of the labour vote gives many of those false hope that the head in the sand state hand out/support structures in scotland will continue under post independence. It wont.

Eddard, you aren't making any sense. The BT team are the ones who have been desperate to make this a party political debate. They have banged on about SNP this that and the other. BT are also the ones who have tried to make it personal about Alex Salmond. It's not.

Yes have lots of Labour supporters and are hoping to gain more as this is where the majority of Undecideds lie outwith the folk who don't normally vote. You obviously have your No tinted specs on.

[mariokempes56]

To be honest I dont think many yessers give a second thought regarding the risks of what could happen post independence. Thats not what drives them. Pride before a fall and all that. Not only that I dont think OP's contribution in this thread is a troll either. Its from the heart. People need to think long and hard about their choice. However if its a Yes vote then we should ensure we all work towards it being a success. I am concerned as we move towards to end game the Yes campaign of turned this into a party political debate. Their shamless courting of the labour vote gives many of those false hope that the head in the sand state hand out/support structures in scotland will continue under post independence. It wont.

I've spent 40+ years thinking about it - conclusion is that YES is the only hope for a better future.

[EddardStark]

Eddard, you aren't making any sense. The BT team are the ones who have been desperate to make this a party political debate. They have banged on about SNP this that and the other. BT are also the ones who have tried to make it personal about Alex Salmond. It's not.

Yes have lots of Labour supporters and are hoping to gain more as this is where the majority of Undecideds lie outwith the folk who don't normally vote. You obviously have your No tinted specs on.

I am making plenty of sense. Hope that helps.e

[RenfrewBlue]

I am making plenty of sense. Hope that helps.e

Nope. You are exhibiting the double standards that Yermaw was talking about. To have it pointed out and then still behave like that is nonsensical to me.

[EddardStark]

Nope. You are exhibiting the double standards that Yermaw was talking about. To have it pointed out and then still behave like that is nonsensical to me.

nope. It is the Yes campaign who positioned themselves above party politics in this campaign only to play the card when they realised there was no chance of winning. That's politics I suppose.

[RenfrewBlue]

nope. It is the Yes campaign who positioned themselves above party politics in this campaign only to play the card when they realised there was no chance of winning. That's politics I suppose.

Your denial of the truth is reaching Celtic supporter levels.

[iainmac1]

Yipee another Troll who comes onto a football board and his first post is about politics, not football.

Maybe he one of the very small number of pretendy Scots that do exist in the TA. That watch an international football team but hate the idea of Scotland being a nation and want it to remain a region.

Also the usual pish of brotherhood as if we won't be allowed to talk to people after independence, it is true though after Norweegian independence no one in Norway talks to their family in Sweden anymore. They now hate their family there.

And if we ever get invaded by the fourth reich then what will happen is would be a carbon copy of the third one. When Poland was invaded everyone stood back and laughed and said well that is what you get for being independent, should have been governed by Moscow.

Also to sum up Scottish nationalism BAD, British nationalisim VERY GOOD. I am not a nationalist (I love being British) I hate nationalisim (Rule Britania). Nationalism is devisive (Look at how great britian is).

Bloody immigrants started everything...

[shaddypeekey]

Certainly, basically I hate nationalism. I hate all the 'them' and 'us' stuff that this referendum has generated. I have friends from all over the UK and just hate the thought of us cutting ourselves off from the rest of Britain. I have always seen the home countries as like four brothers, all with distinct personalities, but with far more in common than differences. We get on each other's nerves, have fierce rivalries, make fun of each other, but, at the end of the day, we would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened. Sad that people want to throw that away. In addition, I don't believe a single word Alex Salmon and Nichola Sturgeon say. I truly believe they are more interested in Scotland becoming independent than Scotland being independent. As Salmond's biographer said, 'It's all about winning with Alex'. They will promise anything to get a Yes vote and have not demonstrated that they have a clear idea of how an independent Scotland would work in practice. It could genuinely be disastrous, and people need to think very carefully before they sign up for such an ill-thought through proposition. And no, I don't believe the statements coming out from the No campaign either but then I don't have to - I have lived in the union for nearly 50 years. I know what it's like. Is rule from Westminster perfect? Absolutely not. There are no end of ways we could improve things but I would rather see us attempt that than go down the independent route.

Phil. I was of the exact same opinion as you pal, but I thought long and hard and decided that we can at least give it a bash on our own two feet. The bit in bold I agree with to an extent, but last time I checked, I didn't give all my money to my brother, only for him to give me back what he deemed fit, whilst keeping some for himself, which is the status quo.(Knowing the tight arse wee shite though, that probably will happen in Dortmund)!

[Goozay]

I've got the popcorn out for this thread...

[Heuch Moray]

Certainly, basically I hate nationalism. I hate all the 'them' and 'us' stuff that this referendum has generated. I have friends from all over the UK and just hate the thought of us cutting ourselves off from the rest of Britain. I have always seen the home countries as like four brothers, all with distinct personalities, but with far more in common than differences. We get on each other's nerves, have fierce rivalries, make fun of each other, but, at the end of the day, we would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened. Sad that people want to throw that away. In addition, I don't believe a single word Alex Salmon and Nichola Sturgeon say. I truly believe they are more interested in Scotland becoming independent than Scotland being independent. As Salmond's biographer said, 'It's all about winning with Alex'. They will promise anything to get a Yes vote and have not demonstrated that they have a clear idea of how an independent Scotland would work in practice. It could genuinely be disastrous, and people need to think very carefully before they sign up for such an ill-thought through proposition. And no, I don't believe the statements coming out from the No campaign either but then I don't have to - I have lived in the union for nearly 50 years. I know what it's like. Is rule from Westminster perfect? Absolutely not. There are no end of ways we could improve things but I would rather see us attempt that than go down the independent route.

Not much point cherry-picking the worst points and turning the entire post bold.

[Gee]

Certainly, basically I hate nationalism. I hate all the 'them' and 'us' stuff that this referendum has generated. I have friends from all over the UK and just hate the thought of us cutting ourselves off from the rest of Britain. I have always seen the home countries as like four brothers, all with distinct personalities, but with far more in common than differences. We get on each other's nerves, have fierce rivalries, make fun of each other, but, at the end of the day, we would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened. Sad that people want to throw that away. In addition, I don't believe a single word Alex Salmon and Nichola Sturgeon say. I truly believe they are more interested in Scotland becoming independent than Scotland being independent. As Salmond's biographer said, 'It's all about winning with Alex'. They will promise anything to get a Yes vote and have not demonstrated that they have a clear idea of how an independent Scotland would work in practice. It could genuinely be disastrous, and people need to think very carefully before they sign up for such an ill-thought through proposition. And no, I don't believe the statements coming out from the No campaign either but then I don't have to - I have lived in the union for nearly 50 years. I know what it's like. Is rule from Westminster perfect? Absolutely not. There are no end of ways we could improve things but I would rather see us attempt that than go down the independent route.

Not sure if on the wind up, but the above seems a bit over dramatic. ‘Cutting ourselves off’ – maybe you can elaborate. Also ‘it could be disastrous’ – any examples of what could happen?

For me, this is more simplistic (more to do with me probably ) than people are trying to make out - sometimes intentionally I think.

I would say the vote is to decide the future political set-up in Britain.

Vote no and we more or less get what we have now – generally an interchanging of Conservative or Labour (UKIP!!) governments, which seem to be fairly similar in make-up at the moment. If you like how the current system works and has worked; if you are happy with the policies of these parties and how they have run the country and the current circumstances of the country. If you like what you see around you then fine, vote for the status quo.

Alternatively,

Vote yes, and the next time you go to the ballot box in a general election (2016), you will be voting for parties who will inherently be formulating policies designed for the betterment of the infrastructure and people of Scotland. The manifestos of these parties will have to contain policies, which will be focused solely on improving the lives of people in Scotland, or they won’t get elected. The party (parties) voted to form the government will then have all the economic powers at their disposable to implement these policies. If they fail to do this effectively, we then vote in the next general election to replace them with a party who we believe will do better.

I think the latter is the best choice for the future of Scotland, but I also don’t believe either to be some kind of scary ‘risk’ that people make out. Each to their own though.

[86glebestreet]

Certainly, basically I hate nationalism. I hate all the 'them' and 'us' stuff that this referendum has generated. I have friends from all over the UK and just hate the thought of us cutting ourselves off from the rest of Britain. I have always seen the home countries as like four brothers, all with distinct personalities, but with far more in common than differences. We get on each other's nerves, have fierce rivalries, make fun of each other, but, at the end of the day, we would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened. Sad that people want to throw that away. In addition, I don't believe a single word Alex Salmon and Nichola Sturgeon say. I truly believe they are more interested in Scotland becoming independent than Scotland being independent. As Salmond's biographer said, 'It's all about winning with Alex'. They will promise anything to get a Yes vote and have not demonstrated that they have a clear idea of how an independent Scotland would work in practice. It could genuinely be disastrous, and people need to think very carefully before they sign up for such an ill-thought through proposition. And no, I don't believe the statements coming out from the No campaign either but then I don't have to - I have lived in the union for nearly 50 years. I know what it's like. Is rule from Westminster perfect? Absolutely not. There are no end of ways we could improve things but I would rather see us attempt that than go down the independent route.

Phil I hate things as well, I hate too much immigration although I am sure many immigrants would benefit Scotland more than some of the people who have lived here all their life, I hate the eu and would love to have the chance to vote in or out, I hate the thought of labour running the country again, and I fcukin hate being told by George Osborne that we can't use the £. Like I said , I hate the eu but who the fcuk is Latvia to tell us we can't join, so I could be stuck with some of the things but I have decided to vote YES as has my English wife , (well she had made her mind up months ago) and also 2 of my children,

Ps I also hate irnbruman, only joking pal, but I can assure you I have never worn a bowler hat

[phil]

Spot on Bob!

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/sir-bob-geldof-backs-no-vote-attacking-nationalism-as-a-very-dangerous-poli.1409820485

[flynnyboy]

Spot on Bob!

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/sir-bob-geldof-backs-no-vote-attacking-nationalism-as-a-very-dangerous-poli.1409820485

Maybes that would be the case if everyone is equal partners. We are not. Only the deluded would agree that people of our nation are treated as equals in this union, be that in a social, moral or economic sense. The man quite clearly has no idea of the issues of the debate and thus his opinion means not a jot to me. Edited September 5, 2014 by flynnyboy

[Alt-Del]

Between Geldof's A-Level History idea of 'nationalism' and his curious, media-inspired notion that the debate has been bad tempered... Irrelevant doesn't quite cover it...

You still here, 'Phil'?