Best Ever Scotland Manager Prior To Strachan

[mcnpauls]

My eldest son, who's fifteen, just asked me this one, and I was about to say Willie Ormond right away, but then I got to thinking about it. I think that, given the weaker players available to him, there really is a great argument that Paw Broon did brilliantly in the 90s.

I'm also tempted to say that Stein was one of the most disappointing: every time I think of the squad he had for the 82 World Cup, that with some better selection decisions, we could have gone far.

What does everyone think?

[aaid]

Craig a Brown, only manager to take us to two consecutive finals. Arguably overachieved with the players available to him.

[mcnpauls]

Craig a Brown, only manager to take us to two consecutive finals. Arguably overachieved with the players available to him.

Totally agree that Brown overachieved with the players he had.

However, Roxburgh actually qualified for consecutive tournaments in 90 and 92 (despite the results, I think 92 might have been just about our best ever play over three matches at a tournament, we were brilliant, but staggeringly unlucky in the first two matches).

Edited April 18, 2015 by mcnpauls

[JECK]

Aye Germany (world champions) and the Dutch (euro 88 winners) as your first games it was always going to be a massive ask. To think we were effectively in the top 8 in Europe back then shows how decent that squad was.

[Robroysboy]

Statiscally its Billy Stark with a 100% win record.

[irnbruman]

Fook off with Brown and Roxburgh - they were pish managers - fookin clueless - qualifying was far easier in their day - the standard of the Scotland teams under them was poor.

Ormond and Ally McLeod - McLeod ws brilliant - only problem was he couldn't control the players in Argentina.

[Robroysboy]

McLeod ws brilliant - only problem was he couldn't control the players in Argentina.

To qualify in'78 when our southern neighbours missed out must put him up there challenging if not the winner.

[Tartan Eagle]

Ormond for me. For years it was hard to explain what qualifying for WC 74 meant to the country (the more so since southern neighbours failed to get to Germany).

Now everyone knows the pain of missing out after an even longer period of non-qualification. Willie Ormond's achievement was to create an expectation of qualification which led to to 6 WC appearances out of 7

[aaid]

Totally agree that Brown overachieved with the players he had.

However, Roxburgh actually qualified for consecutive tournaments in 90 and 92 (despite the results, I think 92 might have been just about our best ever play over three matches at a tournament, we were brilliant, but staggeringly unlucky in the first two matches).

Forgot about Roxburgh. Think he had better players available than Brown did though, which I think you agree with.

[mcnpauls]

Forgot about Roxburgh. Think he had better players available than Brown did though, which I think you agree with.

I had forgotten about his consecutive qualifications, too. I agree he had better players to work with than Brown as well. For all his blathering about preparation, tactics, research, he was to blame for us not doing well in 1990 World Cup.

[Daz1982]

Qualifying was not easier back then, only 24 countries went to Italia 90. We qualified as runners up to Yugoslavia, France managed by Platini stayed at home, they reached the semi final in Mexico four years earlier. That Yugoslav team would have achieved great things had it not been for the war. An upcoming Norwegian side was also in that group, they went on to qualify for USA 94 and France 98.

Euro 92 qualification was also not easy, only the top team from each group progressed to the finals in Sweden which were to involve 8 nations. We were drawn in a sticky group with Romania, Switzerland and Bulgaria. These were arguably the best generation of teams each of those nations have ever produced. Euro 92 was the only tournament the Romanians did not qualify for that decade, they reached the quarter finals of USA 94 and should have gone further. Bulgaria and Switzerland both went on to qualify for USA 94 and Euro 96, Bulgaria reaching the semi finals in 94.

I would certainly agree that Craig Brown overachieved with the players we had available during the 90s. We were very unlucky in all our meetings with England too (96 & 99 play-off), success in these games would have elevated Brown even higher.

I think previous managers perhaps underachieved with the players we had available in previous generations.

Fook off with Brown and Roxburgh - they were pish managers - fookin clueless - qualifying was far easier in their day - the standard of the Scotland teams under them was poor.

Ormond and Ally McLeod - McLeod ws brilliant - only problem was he couldn't control the players in Argentina.

[wanderer]

Would say Brown.

Never liked Roxburgh as he never seemed to play a settled side and at times make really odd tactical choices that I felt cost us a few games (agree though we did play out of our skin at Euro 92)

Brown has a good record, but my major problem was away games were usually lost before a ball was kicked.... How many times did he come out with his "we revel in being the underdog" line? Suppose to be getting the players up for the game, yet was in the press all week saying stuff like "a 0-0 will do is fine here, and we will get them back at Hampden".

[Caledonian Craig]

Fook off with Brown and Roxburgh - they were pish managers - fookin clueless - qualifying was far easier in their day - the standard of the Scotland teams under them was poor.

Ormond and Ally McLeod - McLeod ws brilliant - only problem was he couldn't control the players in Argentina.

First of all your first statement was a contradiction. You say Brown and Roxburgh were pish managers and as Daz pointed out qualifying was NOT easier then but your contradiction was that the standard of the Scotland teams were poor. By that I take it you mean the standard of the players in the squad? If so then that is a big tick to Brown and Roxburgh for managing to get us to major finals with not the best players.

I detect a hint of romanticism with you about Ally McLeod. Another contradiction as well where you say he was brilliant but couldn't control the players? Not exactly traits of a brilliant manager is it? And don't forget McLeod turned us into a laughing stock with his bold predictions and failing to delivery - again hardly brilliant. We suffered two embarrassing results in '78 that still haunt me to this day and that with a squad containing Dalglish, Souness, Jordan et al. Nope I conclude McLeod was far from brilliant.

[scotsgary1]

Alex mcleish done a good job in the short time he was there.

[Toepoke]

McLeish statistically is the best for a manager who has been in charge over 10 games (and unlikely to ever be beaten there).

After Dublin, Strachan will be our only boss in charge for over 20 games with a win record of 50% or more.

Craig Brown has the most wins, but also most games in charge.

The fact that Willie Ormond is seen as our best ever manager shows how badly we've underachieved over the years. I think if Tommy Docherty had stayed in the job for longer the mantle would've been his...

[mcnpauls]

Interestingly, none of us are talking about Stein, utterly legendary though he was as a club manager. I actually think he was one of the biggest underachievers ever as Scotland boss.

With the reputation he had, clout over the SFA, media and players, the fantastic individuals he could pick from, and who formed a pretty united and very well-behaved squad, tens of thousands of us in Spain in 82, great back up staff and facilities then we disappointed at that World Cup, and I put it down to his decisions:

sticking with Rough and McGrain when the younger alternatives were clearly better at the time,

parachuting in Evans, and insisting on Hansen rather than the Aberdeen partnership,

loyalty to Archibald.

[wanderer]

Wasn't Stein close to getting the sack in 84 when the SFA said after the disasteriois Euro campaign that Scotland managers have been sacked for a lot less and Stein told them to judge him on World Cups?

Sounds like Evans in 82 was a rare time that Stein let the press dictate how he should do his job (wasn't New Zealand only his 2nd or 3rd cap up to that point?)

Leighton says in his book that Stein told him he did not want him going to the World Cup uncapped and would play him in the Home Nations v N.Ireland, but went with George Wood.... After the Brazil game Leighton says Stein told Rough he was finished and Leighton would start v the Soviet Union, only for Jim McLean to calm Stein down and go with Rough for that game.

Edited April 19, 2015 by wanderer

[Toepoke]

Stein's Euro campaigns really count against him. He also didn't do very well in the Home Internationals, even Northern Ireland managed to win it twice during his tenure.

[mcnpauls]

Wasn't Stein close to getting the sack in 84 when the SFA said after the disasteriois Euro campaign that Scotland managers have been sacked for a lot less and Stein told them to judge him on World Cups?

Sounds like Evans in 82 was a rare time that Stein let the press dictate how he should do his job (wasn't New Zealand only his 2nd or 3rd cap up to that point?)

Leighton says in his book that Stein told him he did not want him going to the World Cup uncapped and would play him in the Home Nations v N.Ireland, but went with George Wood.... After the Brazil game Leighton says Stein told Rough he was finished and Leighton would start v the Soviet Union, only for Jim McLean to calm Stein down and go with Rough for that game.

Interesting stuff. I actually suspect, though, that Stein let the press dictate teams more often than we might think: his loyalty to both Archibald and Hansen was down to the media always raving about them as being the big stars from the English league, even though they were almost always poor for Scotland. McGrain had the traditional Scottish media support for major Old Firm figures, though this was also based on the guy - who had been astonishing in the 70s - having made admittedly impressive comebacks from more than one career-threatening problem. By 82, though, he was past his peak and a huge part of his brilliance had previously been based on great speed and fitness to both go forward and get back and cover. He was no long quick enough, and lots of us suspected he was going to be vulnerable in the heat of Spain. We all wanted Ray Stewart over there.

Didn't know about the Leighton book, must read it. I wish Stein had blooded him before that World Cup. Again, I suspect Glasgow-based journalists influencing him, it took them all ages to realise just how excellent New Firm players were, but every unbiased fan in Scotland knew by then Leighton was by far our best keeper.

[aaid]

I think following the Argentina debacle there was a lot of caution as far as Stein was concerned. I'm also not sure he was the same after the car crash.

You can make a decent argument that Stein was the best ever Scottish manager - although I personally think Ferguson has surpassed him - but I don't think many would say he was the best ever Scotland manager.

[Orraloon]

Jock Stein for me, without a doubt. Qualified for 2 World Cups (well almost) at a time when we didn't really take the Euros seriously.

Willie Ormond was OK but folk forget he was only in charge for two of the 74 qualifiers and one of them was irrelevant as we had already qualified. We were brilliant once we got to Germany but very unlucky. I think he is revered mainly for that one result against Czechoslovakia at Hampden. It was undoubtedly one of our best results of all time.

I probably shouldn't mention this, but he was also in charge for that horrible game at Wembley in 1975.

[@neaver82]

One look at how poor the team was that started against Brazil at France 98 was in terms of quality tells you all you need to know about how much Craig Brown overachieved when he was in charge. Unfortunately his comments backing Ricky Spragia in the Harper - Good enough for Real madrid but not good enough for Scotland debacle put him down in my estimation.

GK 1 Jim Leighton RB 3 Tom Boyd CB 4 Colin Calderwood CB 5 Colin Hendry (c) LB 22 Christian Dailly 84' RM 14 Paul Lambert CM 8 Craig Burley LM 11 John Collins RF 7 Kevin Gallacher CF 9 Gordon Durie LF 10 Darren Jackson 25' 78' Substitutions: MF 17 Billy McKinlay 78' DF 6 Tosh McKinlay 84'

[Caledonian Craig]

This really is too difficult to call for a number of reasons. Firstly, some managers have had a far better pool of players to call on than others so those managers obviously have an advantage. You have to give much more kudos to the managers that still got us to qualify with less quality to work with such as Craig Brown and Andy Roxburgh had. But there again you still then need to look at how well their teams and other managers teams have performed in the major tournaments. For me I'd say our best tournament had to be the 74 World Cup so Willie Ormond gets kudos for that as we exited unbeaten and the only questionable performance was against Zaire where our lack of goals against them proved terminal to our hopes. Ally McLeod had a strong squad and lofty ambitions but 78 was pretty disasterous barring the Holland match. Scandals in the squad and terrible results that were embarrassing leaves me disqualifying McLeod from consideration. Stein as well had a strong pool of players at his disposal and 82 I'd say was much better than 78 but not quite the level of 74. With Fergie standing in after Stein's death for the 86 World Cup it was known as the 'Group of Death' with quality throughout it and though it was tough we just never quite did ourselves justice there I feel as we failed to break down a 10-man Uruguay side after an early sending off. In 1990, Roxburgh led us to Italy and we suffered embarrassment against Costa Rica but would still say this tournament was better than 78 considering the quality at our disposal and Roxburgh did have us playing well also at the Euro Finals so kudos to him for that. Brown got us to the 98 World Cup but after the glitz and glamour and promise of the opening match V Brazil it all fell very flat after that but in Euro 96 Brown's team did pretty well and we were a little unlucky to miss out on getting through to the second phase.

So from that I will deduce that our best manager at major tournaments was Willie Ormond. Our best manager taking into account longevity, quality (or lack of) in the squad and major tournament performances I'd say was Andy Roxburgh.

[Ormond]

Ormond hands down. Anybody with that name usually excels.

[mcnpauls]

This really is too difficult to call for a number of reasons. Firstly, some managers have had a far better pool of players to call on than others so those managers obviously have an advantage. You have to give much more kudos to the managers that still got us to qualify with less quality to work with such as Craig Brown and Andy Roxburgh had. But there again you still then need to look at how well their teams and other managers teams have performed in the major tournaments. For me I'd say our best tournament had to be the 74 World Cup so Willie Ormond gets kudos for that as we exited unbeaten and the only questionable performance was against Zaire where our lack of goals against them proved terminal to our hopes. Ally McLeod had a strong squad and lofty ambitions but 78 was pretty disasterous barring the Holland match. Scandals in the squad and terrible results that were embarrassing leaves me disqualifying McLeod from consideration. Stein as well had a strong pool of players at his disposal and 82 I'd say was much better than 78 but not quite the level of 74. With Fergie standing in after Stein's death for the 86 World Cup it was known as the 'Group of Death' with quality throughout it and though it was tough we just never quite did ourselves justice there I feel as we failed to break down a 10-man Uruguay side after an early sending off. In 1990, Roxburgh led us to Italy and we suffered embarrassment against Costa Rica but would still say this tournament was better than 78 considering the quality at our disposal and Roxburgh did have us playing well also at the Euro Finals so kudos to him for that. Brown got us to the 98 World Cup but after the glitz and glamour and promise of the opening match V Brazil it all fell very flat after that but in Euro 96 Brown's team did pretty well and we were a little unlucky to miss out on getting through to the second phase.

So from that I will deduce that our best manager at major tournaments was Willie Ormond. Our best manager taking into account longevity, quality (or lack of) in the squad and major tournament performances I'd say was Andy Roxburgh.

A very thoughtful post. I do think one of Ormond's strengths in 74 was that he knew what line-up he wanted and pretty much stuck with it. Suspect with added Jimmy Johnstone and less Willie Morgan/Dennis Law, Ormond would have taken us really far.

Ally McLeod also knew what line-up he wanted to start with, though hindsight makes everyone say it was a line-up a year or two past its best. For me, the awful start was due to lack of availability at the back: not only had he famously lost McGrain and McQueen, but Sandy Jardine was injured for the first match and Willie Donachie was suspended. Even one of those four playing on the day of Peru might have bolstered us enough for a less damaging result, never mind two or three of them being ready. I know this would not have solved other problems like Bud Johnson's insanity, Macari's treachery, or Don Masson's collapse, but it could have got us off to a more respectable start. However Ally really should have brought Souness in for the Iran game at least, so I can't claim he's our best manager.

Stein's defensive selections, as I said earlier were our downfall in 82. Whereas the defence was the only thing Fergie got right in 86.

Costa Rica result was a shock, but they were actually a good team and Scotland played well on the day but were unlucky. However, Roxburgh loses points for leaving some of our most talented players at home and fielding plodders like McInally. Most unforgivable though was trying to get no more than a 0-0 draw against one of the poorest Brazil sides ever. We all feared that approach was most likely to lead to a 1-0 loss, and lo and behold...

His Euro 92 team played brilliantly and were heartbreakingly unlucky, though, I still think it's our best three performances in a single tournament, but we were jinxed. With a couple of bits of luck we might easily have actually won all three matches against the strongest opposition we've faced in a tournament.

Brown never had the players that even Roxburgh had access to, but he did squeeze virtually everything possible out of them. As a fair-minded and thoughtful man, I have a sneaking feeling he might have done better than any of his predecessors if he'd been in charge of their squads.