thplinth Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Ach maybe take the frivolity somewhere else it is getting annoying. Seems like they shot down an old soviet era bomber not a fighter (or even an old one). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24#Specifications_.28Su-24MK.29 If so this was a really cowardly snide attack from a much more advanced killer aircraft. Look at what Dave Cameron and Obama say next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topcat Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Funny how almost the entire escapade has been filmed on a fairly steadily held high definition camera. Coincidence? Or am I just being cynical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Funny how almost the entire escapade has been filmed on a fairly steadily held high definition camera. Coincidence? Or am I just being cynical? I wondered that as well, also looking at the maps, it was a 2 mile wide protrusion in the Turkey/Syria border. Also Turkey has gained some land from Syria in 2012 by pushing in militarily and creating an exclusion zone, a buffer of no mans land. So some debate as to what the border is anyway along that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Funny how almost the entire escapade has been filmed on a fairly steadily held high definition camera. Coincidence? Or am I just being cynical? Just like the Russian passenger plane blowing up with 200+ folk on board. It was at 31000 feet or higher. Yet ISIS tracked it on camera from take off to detonation and had it posted on the web within hours or less. (sorry if that has been debunked but I have not seen it) Edited November 24, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 With the information available (RADAR maps, provided by new york times) I can't see where the Jets were in Syrian space for any longer than 6-10 seconds, as i said there is a protrusion 2 miles wide on the flight path. which would take less than 10 seconds for a jet to cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Ach maybe take the frivolity somewhere else it is getting annoying. Seems like they shot down an old soviet era bomber not a fighter (or even an old one). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24#Specifications_.28Su-24MK.29 If so this was a really cowardly snide attack from a much more advanced killer aircraft. Look at what Dave Cameron and Obama say next. Yeah it was an unescorted bomber. So two fighters took it out. Russia Will be escorting all bombers from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Yeah it was an unescorted bomber. Boak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Since the earliest months of the Syrian war, Turkey has had more direct involvement and more at stake than any of the regional states lined up against Bashar al-Assad. Turkish borders have been the primary thoroughfare for fighters of all kinds to enter Syria. Its military bases have been used to distribute weapons and to train rebel fighters. And its frontier towns and villages have taken in almost one million refugees. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/vladimir-putin-turkey-isis-terrorists-warplane-analysis Links between Turkey and ISIS are now 'undeniable'http://www.businessinsider.com.au/links-between-turkey-and-isis-are-now-undeniable-2015-7?r=US&IR=T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Russia probably attacking Turkish Privateers to secure Assad and Turkey didn't want it to happen so took them out, then ran to NATO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) oops wrong thread Edited November 24, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Sorry for linking the daily mail. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html?ICO=most_read_module But all the videos in one place. Particularly sinister are the bastards on the ground shooting the pilots in their parachutes as they float down. Apparently ethnic Syrian Turks (not ISIS). J Edited November 24, 2015 by Bristolhibby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mee Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 I'm looking forward to when I can stick on the news and not have it look like the start of a Tom Clancy book. I cant believe Turkey shot down the Russian plane because they cut accross a wee sticky out bit and NATO (I.e. us are backing them up now). Poor pilots killed parachuting down (war crime) and then the rescue helicopters got shot down too by US supplied rocket launchers. All that is now happening in our name. Really messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robroysboy Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 The Syrian ground forces shooting at the pilots while still in their parachutes is understandable. not condoning it but it is a war zone and these pilots were out to kill them. So fair dos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Wonder if Turkey was prodded into doing this by good old uncle Sam. There does seem to be an agenda to push Russia. Has there been much in the media about the death of the journo who published the story about Turkey helping Isis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Wonder if Turkey was prodded into doing this by good old uncle Sam. Yeah of course the were. Turkey would never have the nuts for it otherwise. So now you know how fukked we are here. Get ready for death, or worse survival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Yeah of course the were. Turkey would never have the nuts for it otherwise. So now you know how fukked we are here. Get ready for death, or worse survival. Not think you are over reacting a bit here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Not think you are over reacting a bit here? Aye probably, gloomy day. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 The Syrian ground forces shooting at the pilots while still in their parachutes is understandable. not condoning it but it is a war zone and these pilots were out to kill them. So fair dos. They should have been taken as prisoners of war. Absolute sitting ducks in their parachute harnesses. Would be an outrage if this was RAF pilots killed and broadcast on YouTube. And this isn't even ISIS we are talking about. It appears that they are ethnic Turks! Onto another point, are Turkey really fighting ISIS? It appears they are supporting their ethnic brothers in Syria against Russian jets (backing Assad that the Syrian Turks are fighting against), while mounting strikes against Kurds in Turkey and Syria (who are also our friends who are fighting ISIS (and Assad). And Call me Dave wants to charge into this ####in hornets nest with no real strategy?!?! FFS! J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 FOR FUUCKS SAKE - stop the petty sniping - take it elsewhere. Let's stick to being on topic. I blame the Admins for not putting a lid on this ages ago - there should be politics section for the constant shite that goes on here. Eh - if this thread isn't politics I don't know what is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 They should have been taken as prisoners of war. Absolute sitting ducks in their parachute harnesses. Would be an outrage if this was RAF pilots killed and broadcast on YouTube. And this isn't even ISIS we are talking about. It appears that they are ethnic Turks! Onto another point, are Turkey really fighting ISIS? It appears they are supporting their ethnic brothers in Syria against Russian jets (backing Assad that the Syrian Turks are fighting against), while mounting strikes against Kurds in Turkey and Syria (who are also our friends who are fighting ISIS (and Assad). And Call me Dave wants to charge into this ######in hornets nest with no real strategy?!?! FFS! J I don't think anyone in that neck of the woods has time for such niceties - being dead before hitting the ground was probably a blessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stapes Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 With the information available (RADAR maps, provided by new york times) I can't see where the Jets were in Syrian space for any longer than 6-10 seconds, as i said there is a protrusion 2 miles wide on the flight path. which would take less than 10 seconds for a jet to cover. Military analyst chap on a station earlier (ITV?) said pretty much this - it would have passed through in about 17 seconds. He then went on to detail the process planes go through to warn other planes off - verbal warning, visual warning, dipping of wings, showing of weapons on belly, all of which takes a fair amount of time. Basically he said it couldn't be done in the time the Russian planes were in Turkey (if they were indeed in Turkey). One other thing he noted was that that particular plane can change the shape of its wings, and they were spread out, meaning that the plane wasn't trying to evade another plane. Draw your own conclusions, but his thoughts were pretty clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Military analyst chap on a station earlier (ITV?) said pretty much this - it would have passed through in about 17 seconds. He then went on to detail the process planes go through to warn other planes off - verbal warning, visual warning, dipping of wings, showing of weapons on belly, all of which takes a fair amount of time. Basically he said it couldn't be done in the time the Russian planes were in Turkey (if they were indeed in Turkey). One other thing he noted was that that particular plane can change the shape of its wings, and they were spread out, meaning that the plane wasn't trying to evade another plane. Draw your own conclusions, but his thoughts were pretty clear. Yeah i guessed the time based off modern jets, thplinth seems to have identified it as an older bomber, so in hindsight 17 seconds is more reasonable. Also the border line was moved unilaterally by turkey in 2012 as a buffer against Syria, so god knows what border we are talking about. A possibility is this air corridor was used all the time, a time and place was chosen by whoever, got the HD cameras in and people on the ground then just take it out, for whatever reason. As an aside the Free Syrian army (moderate rebels) were the ones eating hearts, killing babies and desecrating sacred shia sites all over Syria before we heard of ISIS. This seems like another arm some crazies to fight our enemies gone wrong again shit. Edited November 24, 2015 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stapes Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Yep, something isn't ringing true. Hopefully the folks in power figure this out, but after seeing Putin's former adviser (Markov?) ranting on ITV earlier I'm not convinced they will, or maybe even want to. Edited November 24, 2015 by Stapes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Taking Turkey's side against Russia is a disgrace and emphasises everything that is wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Taking Turkey's side against Russia is a disgrace and emphasises everything that is wrong NATOs response - "We back Turkey". http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_125052.htm?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=smc&utm_campaign=20151124%2Bsg%2Bturkey%2Brussia Seriously guys? A few hours on Twitter and we have more questions than you can ever answer. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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