wee-toon-red Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Surely if a Westminster government was mad enough to dissolve the Scottish parliament without a referendum on it then independence would almost automatically follow? Surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jockodile Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Unless federalism is introduced, and there's slim to zero chance of that, independence is all but certain as soon as the demographics allow it. Time is very much on our side, those who voted Yes are unlikely to ever go back to No and it's only a 5% swing. Unlike last time when Yes was behind till last gasp allowing plenty to vote status quo/be bribed by the Vow etc, next time it will be utterly embarrassing to be in No. Dissolving the Scottish parliament against the wishes of the people could mitigate indy, as Tam D correctly predicted the existence of a Scottish parliament would, slowly but surely, end the union. But that would surely be a UDI moment, not likely to be a scenario wanted by either side of the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UPROAR Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Surely if a Westminster government was mad enough to dissolve the Scottish parliament without a referendum on it then independence would almost automatically follow? Surely? sometimes the principle is important.... we can switch you off like a light at any moment. You only exist with our consent. We can tread on you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Since he has had a wee bit criticism on here should try and catch John Nicolson's maiden speech that he made today. It was really enjoyable Witty and educational Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuNsTeR Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Unless federalism is introduced, and there's slim to zero chance of that, independence is all but certain as soon as the demographics allow it. Time is very much on our side, those who voted Yes are unlikely to ever go back to No and it's only a 5% swing. Unlike last time when Yes was behind till last gasp allowing plenty to vote status quo/be bribed by the Vow etc, next time it will be utterly embarrassing to be in No. Dissolving the Scottish parliament against the wishes of the people could mitigate indy, as Tam D correctly predicted the existence of a Scottish parliament would, slowly but surely, end the union. But that would surely be a UDI moment, not likely to be a scenario wanted by either side of the debate. a few of the no voters in my work are now admit regretting voting no ... the NO camp face a massive problem of who will be the public face of their campaign ... Labour have no big hitters left and the likes of Gordon Brown is heavily tarnished ... who are they gonna front it with .... Labour in Scotland are a total shambles I can't see them possibly run another Better Together style campaign with their very limited finances and Liberals are heavily damaged and Ruth Davidson or the likes of Cameron/Osborne or Johnson will turn more voters to Yes ... bring it on after the SNP and Greens control Holyrood in 2016 I say 2017 a 3 month campaign with Nicola and the public face of the Yes campaign along with Patrick Harvie Edited June 17, 2015 by FuNsTeR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenfrewBlue Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Unless we sort out the currency question and put up a more varied argument on the finances then it still wouldn't get a Yes. Too many folk frightened by the money side of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killiefaetheferry Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Agree. Rip the plaster off and say we use the pound with or without WM agreement. Their choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Unless we sort out the currency question and put up a more varied argument on the finances then it still wouldn't get a Yes. Too many folk frightened by the money side of things. Agree - currency was defining issue of last referendum We shouldn't attempt a second referendum until this question is answered and we are sure of victory. In next 10-20 years this would be most likely to happen if Scotland was removed from EU against its will ? In this scenario the entire debate would be changed Whilst it might not be universally popular pre-negotiating entry into the euro would (IMHO) answer many of the currency "unknowns". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Whilst it might not be universally popular pre-negotiating entry into the euro would (IMHO) answer many of the currency "unknowns". Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm fairly sure the European Commission aren't allowed to pre-negotiate anything with 'regions'. We'd need to actually vote for independence first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm fairly sure the European Commission aren't allowed to pre-negotiate anything with 'regions'. We'd need to actually vote for independence first. I think you're right. Cameron could have asked the EU what Scotland's position would have been re the EU prior to the referendum, but he didn't. Uncertainty was a key ingredient of the No campaign's strategy - and it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldo Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I think you're right. Cameron could have asked the EU what Scotland's position would have been re the EU prior to the referendum, but he didn't. Uncertainty was a key ingredient of the No campaign's strategy - and it worked. Would this have meant that if the SNP had been in coalition with labour and chaired the Foreign affairs committee, then they would have been able to have asked the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 I think you're right. Cameron could have asked the EU what Scotland's position would have been re the EU prior to the referendum, but he didn't. Uncertainty was a key ingredient of the No campaign's strategy - and it worked. 100% correct. Prior to September 2014 the EU would only negotiate with Westminster, rather than Holyrood. However if the UK had already voted to leave the EU ? Then I suspect the EU would be keen to have Scotland as members ? And thus willing to discuss possible terms for Scotland joining the EU / Euro. IMHO : this would remove many of the "unknowns" and any 2nd referendum debate would be very different ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Agree. Rip the plaster off and say we use the pound with or without WM agreement. Their choice. That didn't work last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 So we're agreeing Currency actually was a huge Issue? Good to know. Damn if only we knew that at the actual time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Would this have meant that if the SNP had been in coalition with labour and chaired the Foreign affairs committee, then they would have been able to have asked the question? Good question. They possibly would have (although Labour would no doubt come in for loads of flack for allowing a party who "want to break up Britain" joint-chair its foreign affairs committe). 100% correct. Prior to September 2014 the EU would only negotiate with Westminster, rather than Holyrood. However if the UK had already voted to leave the EU ? Then I suspect the EU would be keen to have Scotland as members ? And thus willing to discuss possible terms for Scotland joining the EU / Euro. IMHO : this would remove many of the "unknowns" and any 2nd referendum debate would be very different ? Aye, it might well clarify the picture. Although, there would still be 'uncertainties' over terms and conditions of membership etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 So we're agreeing Currency actually was a huge Issue? Good to know. Damn if only we knew that at the actual time... No no! It was the vow! All the vow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UPROAR Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 No no! It was the vow! All the vow! I'm a bit tired of 'the vow' - the vow was only a BBC/Labour PR stunt to focus on what Darling, Cameron and (to a lesser extent) Brown had been saying all along.... 'all the possibilities of devolution'.... 'nothing short of a modern form of federalism'..... they offered full autonomy in the UK and I want it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I'm a bit tired of 'the vow' - the vow was only a BBC/Labour PR stunt to focus on what Darling, Cameron and (to a lesser extent) Brown had been saying all along.... 'all the possibilities of devolution'.... 'nothing short of a modern form of federalism'..... they offered full autonomy in the UK and I want it. I don't remember Cameron saying anything about full autonomy, remind me? I don't remember Brown saying it either granted, but I pay little attention to that moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Bob Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Brown said something along the lines of 'as much federalism as possible when one federal unit contains 85% of the population', which can be taken a number of ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UPROAR Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) I don't remember Cameron saying anything about full autonomy, remind me? I don't remember Brown saying it either granted, but I pay little attention to that lovely cuddly bunny. man, if you're trying to say that the Better Together campaign with the clear mandate and authority of the Prime Minister did not frequently and deliberately offer/suggest/propose/imply/infer and in every other way possible tell us we would have federalism / devolution / home rule then........ you need to evaluate your concept of reality. Did they say it in a way that would legally bind them? no - but every fecker on the planet knows what they said and what it meant and they are now playing games to say they didn't. https://vine.co/v/eep3UdYJQr9 there will be much more serious political consequences...... Edited June 18, 2015 by UPROAR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 man, if you're trying to say that the Better Together campaign with the clear mandate and authority of the Prime Minister did not frequently and deliberately offer/suggest/propose/imply/infer and in every other way possible tell us we would have federalism / devolution / home rule then........ you need to evaluate your concept of reality. Did they say it in a way that would legally bind them? no - but every fecker on the planet knows what they said and what it meant and they are now playing games to say they didn't. https://vine.co/v/eep3UdYJQr9 there will be much more serious political consequences...... I said I didn't remember it and you're questioning my sanity? . I merely asked you to remind me and you haven't done so, no need to be so touchy friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UPROAR Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I said I didn't remember it and you're questioning my sanity? . I merely asked you to remind me and you haven't done so, no need to be so touchy friend It's worse than that I was using you as a proxy for all those who need their sanity checking !!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flumax Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) 58 aye 504 no for ffa plans. Wonder who the other two are Edited June 29, 2015 by flumax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 58 aye 504 no for ffa plans. Wonder who the other two are Presumably one of them was Sir Edward Leigh, who tabled his own FFA amendment. Seemingly the scale of this defeat elicited much amusement in the HoC. We really need out of this union. The trouble is, a majority of people in Scotland would probably still rather we were having the piss ripped out of us by smug politicians we haven't voted for than take control of our own destiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stapes Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 58 aye 504 no for ffa plans. Wonder who the other two are Leigh, Plaid and Green? Maybe a couple of AWOL SNP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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