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A Choice For The Left


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Older guy at my work is a dyed in the wool socialist, one who goes out there and does the door knocking, stalls and so on. Lifetime member of the Labour Party. And, fwiw, a staunch No voter, although not aggressively anti-Yes (just believed No was the way to go). Walked into my work this morning and told me he'd left the party and joined the SSP. The views of the remaining members of his branch were so far removed from trafitional Labour values that he felt he had no alternative. Are we really witnessing the strange death of Labour in Scotland? It would seem so.

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For the life of me I can't understand why a socialist would vote no, unless they value solidarity as part of the UK as more important than potentially achieving something more in an independent Scotland

A socialist independent Scotland would be as equally difficult to achieve as a socialist Britain, the challenges are the same. Independence would have split the trade unions and also the, albeit extremely small Labour movement in Britain.

Some like myself fancied pressing the reset button, and others didn't. I've absolutely no qualms with anyone from the left who opposed independence, their arguments for the most part were sound.

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For the life of me I can't understand why a socialist would vote no, unless they value solidarity as part of the UK as more important than potentially achieving something more in an independent Scotland

This. But, yes, solidarity with Liverpool dockers rather than Edinburgh lawyers was always the reason I was given. A strange one when you dig down into it, but hey ho.

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But why is the Union of the UK so important to them? That's what I can't get my head round.

It's not. The Trade Unions and the UK wide Labour movement is though. If you're interested give Britains Road to Socialism a gander, it's relatively short but informative.

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A socialist independent Scotland would be as equally difficult to achieve as a socialist Britain, the challenges are the same. Independence would have split the trade unions and also the, albeit extremely small Labour movement in Britain.

Some like myself fancied pressing the reset button, and others didn't. I've absolutely no qualms with anyone from the left who opposed independence, their arguments for the most part were sound.

I am not sure about that. It might be difficult but I don't think it would be as difficult. We would be starting at ground zero following independence. We would no longer have the UK's monolithic institutions to negotiate - its House of Lords, its first-past-the-post, its aristocracy, its city of London. The democratic set-up in Scotland is more modern and more flexible than the UK's. The regional list system enables a greater diversity of parties. I imagine either Labour or the SNP would have formed the first government but I reckon the left-wing Greens would have picked up a fair few votes too, possibly enough to find themselves in a 'kingmaker' role or even a possible coalition partner. (I assume you were referring to democratic rather than revolutionary socialism here).

Even Scotland's class system, while it undoubtedly exists and is alive and well, is not a like-for-like mirror of England's. I have never bought the lazy, almost smug, cliche that Scotland is more left-wing than England. But simply by virtue of being a much smaller community, Scotland, almost unavoidably, possesses strong communitarian values. This provides the bedrock for socialism. MacLean believed than socialism would be easier to achieve in an independent Scotland because, traditionally, Scottish society had run along the similar lines to the clan system (the original clan system was essentially an early form of socialism).

The prospect of the British trade union movement being divided was one of the very few things that made me sad about the prospect of Scottish independence. Then again, given that government legislation has neutered the power of trade unions, it is debatable how much there is left to miss. Many on the left from down south, including trade unionists, will have been rooting for a Yes vote. For them, the referendum might have been a bit like a school kid watching his mate standing up to the class bully, only for the class bully to turn round and banjo him. Trade unionism is by its very nature internationalist. Just because different countries and cultures exist and mean something to people doesn't mean we automatically stop caring about each other. Anyone who argues otherwise has either missed the point or is a fraud.

I have no doubt that the No vote, at least in the short term, was the worst possible outcome for ordinary people - on both sides of the border. People are sick of austerity, public assets being sold off, spending cuts, Workfare, low-value jobs on zero hour contracts, wage freezes and so on and so forth. If it had been a Yes, if the British establishment had been put on its arse, there would have been many, many people throughout the UK thinking 'good on them', and started asking difficult questions of there own. Instead, the established order remained on its pedestal. For the time being anyway.

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I am not sure about that. It might be difficult but I don't think it would be as difficult. We would be starting at ground zero following independence. We would no longer have the UK's monolithic institutions to negotiate - its House of Lords, its first-past-the-post, its aristocracy, its city of London. The democratic set-up in Scotland is more modern and more flexible than the UK's. The regional list system enables a greater diversity of parties. I imagine either Labour or the SNP would have formed the first government but I reckon the left-wing Greens would have picked up a fair few votes too, possibly enough to find themselves in a 'kingmaker' role or even a possible coalition partner. (I assume you were referring to democratic rather than revolutionary socialism here).

Even Scotland's class system, while it undoubtedly exists and is alive and well, is not a like-for-like mirror of England's. I have never bought the lazy, almost smug, cliche that Scotland is more left-wing than England. But simply by virtue of being a much smaller community, Scotland, almost unavoidably, possesses strong communitarian values. This provides the bedrock for socialism. MacLean believed than socialism would be easier to achieve in an independent Scotland because, traditionally, Scottish society had run along the similar lines to the clan system (the original clan system was essentially an early form of socialism).

The prospect of the British trade union movement being divided was one of the very few things that made me sad about the prospect of Scottish independence. Then again, given that government legislation has neutered the power of trade unions, it is debatable how much there is left to miss. Many on the left from down south, including trade unionists, will have been rooting for a Yes vote. For them, the referendum might have been a bit like a school kid watching his mate standing up to the class bully, only for the class bully to turn round and banjo him. Trade unionism is by its very nature internationalist. Just because different countries and cultures exist and mean something to people doesn't mean we automatically stop caring about each other. Anyone who argues otherwise has either missed the point or is a fraud.

I have no doubt that the No vote, at least in the short term, was the worst possible outcome for ordinary people - on both sides of the border. People are sick of austerity, public assets being sold off, spending cuts, Workfare, low-value jobs on zero hour contracts, wage freezes and so on and so forth. If it had been a Yes, if the British establishment had been put on its arse, there would have been many, many people throughout the UK thinking 'good on them', and started asking difficult questions of there own. Instead, the established order remained on its pedestal. For the time being anyway.

Can agree with much of that. There's arguments for both routes, and it would be wrong for me to say either is 100% the right way to go. Although saying that, one does have a set out plan of action. The SSP attempted to put the Scottish lefts minds to rest by publishing their own paper on an independent route... And it was a laughing stock, conjecture and mistruths everywhere.

Gary O'Rourke planned to gain support for a visible progressive group within the SNP, much like Labour Left. Which is an idea I could have got behind, just as Labour Left have my full support. It's my understanding that the party wasn't keen, but if the support was there they couldn't have ignored it.

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This. But, yes, solidarity with Liverpool dockers rather than Edinburgh lawyers was always the reason I was given. A strange one when you dig down into it, but hey ho.

And i have far more in common with a Yes voting Edinburgh lawyer than a Liverpool trade union leader who earns over 100,000 year a great pension (which i help pay for ) and who coerces other people to vote against another countries democratic rights.

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I am not sure about that. It might be difficult but I don't think it would be as difficult. We would be starting at ground zero following independence. We would no longer have the UK's monolithic institutions to negotiate - its House of Lords, its first-past-the-post, its aristocracy, its city of London. The democratic set-up in Scotland is more modern and more flexible than the UK's. The regional list system enables a greater diversity of parties. I imagine either Labour or the SNP would have formed the first government but I reckon the left-wing Greens would have picked up a fair few votes too, possibly enough to find themselves in a 'kingmaker' role or even a possible coalition partner. (I assume you were referring to democratic rather than revolutionary socialism here).

Even Scotland's class system, while it undoubtedly exists and is alive and well, is not a like-for-like mirror of England's. I have never bought the lazy, almost smug, cliche that Scotland is more left-wing than England. But simply by virtue of being a much smaller community, Scotland, almost unavoidably, possesses strong communitarian values. This provides the bedrock for socialism. MacLean believed than socialism would be easier to achieve in an independent Scotland because, traditionally, Scottish society had run along the similar lines to the clan system (the original clan system was essentially an early form of socialism).

The prospect of the British trade union movement being divided was one of the very few things that made me sad about the prospect of Scottish independence. Then again, given that government legislation has neutered the power of trade unions, it is debatable how much there is left to miss. Many on the left from down south, including trade unionists, will have been rooting for a Yes vote. For them, the referendum might have been a bit like a school kid watching his mate standing up to the class bully, only for the class bully to turn round and banjo him. Trade unionism is by its very nature internationalist. Just because different countries and cultures exist and mean something to people doesn't mean we automatically stop caring about each other. Anyone who argues otherwise has either missed the point or is a fraud.

I have no doubt that the No vote, at least in the short term, was the worst possible outcome for ordinary people - on both sides of the border. People are sick of austerity, public assets being sold off, spending cuts, Workfare, low-value jobs on zero hour contracts, wage freezes and so on and so forth. If it had been a Yes, if the British establishment had been put on its arse, there would have been many, many people throughout the UK thinking 'good on them', and started asking difficult questions of there own. Instead, the established order remained on its pedestal. For the time being anyway.

Good post Scotlad. Disagree with you about the trades union movement entirely.Has come a long way from the Tolpuddle martyrs.It is not only legislation that has neutered its down views. It always supported the establishment and did nothing to prevent privatization and the removal of equal rights for everyone else.Its membership have been involved in propelling scum like Michael Martin and Tony Blair to the top of the gravy train and i don't see much evidence of internationalist theory.Quite the opposite as far as Scotland is concerned. The trade union movement always liked to portray itself as a socialist organisation but like most socialists scratch the surface and you find a repressed right winger desperate to be part of the "upper classes".The British trade union movement is full of them.

Edited by Wine bibber
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A socialist independent Scotland would be as equally difficult to achieve as a socialist Britain, the challenges are the same. Independence would have split the trade unions and also the, albeit extremely small Labour movement in Britain.

Some like myself fancied pressing the reset button, and others didn't. I've absolutely no qualms with anyone from the left who opposed independence, their arguments for the most part were sound.

What I didn't get with their argument is why preserve one set of borders rather than another. What makes working within UK borders better than Scottish ones. Surely they should not working for all not arguing which borders are best.

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Good post Scotlad. Disagree with you about the trades union movement entirely.Has come a long way from the Tolpuddle martyrs.It is not only legislation that has neutered its down views. It always supported the establishment and did nothing to prevent privatization and the removal of equal rights for everyone else.Its membership have been involved in propelling scum like Michael Martin and Tony Blair to the top of the gravy train and i don't see much evidence of internationalist theory.Quite the opposite as far as Scotland is concerned. The trade union movement always liked to portray itself as a socialist organisation but like most socialists scratch the surface and you find a repressed right winger desperate to be part of the "upper classes".The British trade union movement is full of them.

Conjecture and shite. In my humble opinion.

What I didn't get with their argument is why preserve one set of borders rather than another. What makes working within UK borders better than Scottish ones. Surely they should not working for all not arguing which borders are best.

There's differing theories on borders and socialism, and it's something I myself am split on. Before the Indyref I found myself agreeing with Trotsky that socialism could be achieved within one state, strengthened by the progressive mood of the campaign, but afterwards seeing good former socialists, and a sizable portion of the general population being affected by petty nationalism... I'm finding myself agreeing more with Marx. But as I said, I'm split. I'll examine my position more post May.

Edited by Scunnered
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Conjecture and shite. In my humble opinion.

There's differing theories on borders and socialism, and it's something I myself am split on. Before the Indyref I found myself agreeing with Trotsky that socialism could be achieved within one state, strengthened by the progressive mood of the campaign, but afterwards seeing good former socialists, and a sizable portion of the general population being affected by petty nationalism... I'm finding myself agreeing more with Marx. But as I said, I'm split. I'll examine my position more post May.

Fact not conjecture.Prove me wrong in any of it.Marx ?.hmm .There are no former socialists only ones who have been outed.

I have never met a socialist ,but i 've met several who claimed they were.Is this you ?

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Conjecture and shite. In my humble opinion.

There's differing theories on borders and socialism, and it's something I myself am split on. Before the Indyref I found myself agreeing with Trotsky that socialism could be achieved within one state, strengthened by the progressive mood of the campaign, but afterwards seeing good former socialists, and a sizable portion of the general population being affected by petty nationalism... I'm finding myself agreeing more with Marx. But as I said, I'm split. I'll examine my position more post May.

But it isn't an argument about borders or no borders (which I can actually understand and have sympathy with) its about defending one set of borders v's another which I just don't get.

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But it isn't an argument about borders or no borders (which I can actually understand and have sympathy with) its about defending one set of borders v's another which I just don't get.

Richard Leonard was very good on this point. Give his stuff a read if you find the time.

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