ErsatzThistle Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 I am friggin' puzzled by this whole thread. So Gary Caldwell was masterful? Was he heck. Give me our current crop of defenders over him any day. Need I remind folk we are NOT I repeat NOT leaking goals like there is no tomorrow at the moment so where in hell is this Doomsday in Central Defence. Our current crop are part of the team that has us in strong contention for qualification and it ain't from us being a free-scoring side. I just think this post reeks of looking at the clubs our options play for and automatically pinning them down as being not up to it. Horse crap. Need I remind people of athe all-conquering Liverpool side when we had Alan Hansen make a calamitous error that caused us to be eliminated from the 82 World Cup? In recent times Caldwell and Pressley scared the crap out of me with their desire to try to swap shirts with opponents mid-match and it cost us penalties/errors and red cards - far more so than our current crop of defenders. In recent years (say the last five years) I'd only take David Weir and have him in the side. This isn't the first time you'd had problems with basic reading. Read the post again dummy. It's about what happens if we lose Hanley, Martin, Greer and Berra at the same time and we have to pick four new back ups. That is the doomsday scenario. Why is it you struggle to read posts through properly ? This isn't the first time either. The sheer amount of times you completely miss the point of someone's post and make the most bizarre and pointless arguments is getting ridiculous and quite boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 This isn't the first time you'd had problems with basic reading. Read the post again dummy. It's about what happens if we lose Hanley, Martin, Greer and Berra at the same time and we have to pick four new back ups. That is the doomsday scenario. Why is it you struggle to read posts through properly ? This isn't the first time either. The sheer amount of times you completely miss the point of someone's post and make the most bizarre and pointless arguments is getting ridiculous and quite boring. Jeez cool it. And quit making dramas that aren't even there. We could make the same point about any of the teams in our group and they'd struggle as well so what is the point of this thread?? Turn the clock back five, ten or even fifteen years and we'd struggle to cope with losing four of our first choice central defenders so your so-called doomsday scenario means pretty much naff all. If it is an attempt to say we are thin on the ground at the centre of defence well I hate to break it to you but we couldn't cope with losing four first choice central defenders at any time this century. I will say the options we have now are better than the options we have had for at least a decade (David Weir aside). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecie Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Is Garry kenneth still playing? Did he ever start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86glebestreet Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Just put Forrest and bannan in central defence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robroysboy Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Can't remember that game in particular but he played right back a fair bit and did well Could be wrong but I think Fletcher and Michael Carrick got a doing as a central partnership pairing. Could have been fulham away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goozay Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 This isn't the first time you'd had problems with basic reading. Read the post again dummy. It's about what happens if we lose Hanley, Martin, Greer and Berra at the same time and we have to pick four new back ups. That is the doomsday scenario. Why is it you struggle to read posts through properly ? This isn't the first time either. The sheer amount of times you completely miss the point of someone's post and make the most bizarre and pointless arguments is getting ridiculous and quite boring. Yes. But your post and this thread is focussing on central defence. Why is that? It suggests you feel there's an Achilles type weakness in that area. If Marshall and Gordon have a dodgy Fish Supper is that not a Doomsday Scenario? And if Steven Fletcher, who Gibraltar aside, has hardly been sh1ting goals, and Naismith share a Nando's is that also not a Doomsday Scenario? What is about central defence that made you start this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Caldwell also played under McLeish and Smith to counter-balance that argument (and Brown) PLUS he had the steadying influence of David Weir alongside him. And Hanley and Martin did both play under Levein (all be it briefly). Aye and he was good under those managers. The argument that Caldwell was a bombscare isn't back up by evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Aye and he was good under those managers. The argument that Caldwell was a bombscare isn't back up by evidence. He won 55 Caps and in that time we conceded 79 goals. An average of 1.44 goals per game. That is far higher average than the likes of Martin, Hanley, Berra, Greer or even Pressley. I recall his bombscare moments as well and lets not forget he played in a defence alongside the likes of Weir and Dailly who I'd say were our only two real top quality central defenders of this century and still he churned out high goals per game conceded ratio. That is my evidence. I disregard that he played for Celtic or that he scored V France that people may use to cloud their judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 He won 55 Caps and in that time we conceded 79 goals. An average of 1.44 goals per game. That is far higher average than the likes of Martin, Hanley, Berra, Greer or even Pressley. I recall his bombscare moments as well and lets not forget he played in a defence alongside the likes of Weir and Dailly who I'd say were our only two real top quality central defenders of this century and still he churned out high goals per game conceded ratio. That is my evidence. I disregard that he played for Celtic or that he scored V France that people may use to cloud their judgement. You defend as a team. Caldwell for the majority of his caps played in teams that unfortunately defended deep and invited pressure. His two worst games were Norway and Wales away under burley but otherwise I can't remember too many individual mistakes. He would have did well in a Strachan Scotland team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes and you are a part of that defending unit. He had the benefit of having Weir alongside him for long spells and Dailly (both generally rated as our best central defenders of the last 10 to 15 years) so surely more should be expected from those figures? Martin, Hanley and Greer have not had the luxury of such a steadying influence alongside them yet they still have better defensive stats than Caldwell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Jeez cool it. And quit making dramas that aren't even there. We could make the same point about any of the teams in our group and they'd struggle as well so what is the point of this thread?? Turn the clock back five, ten or even fifteen years and we'd struggle to cope with losing four of our first choice central defenders so your so-called doomsday scenario means pretty much naff all. If it is an attempt to say we are thin on the ground at the centre of defence well I hate to break it to you but we couldn't cope with losing four first choice central defenders at any time this century. I will say the options we have now are better than the options we have had for at least a decade (David Weir aside). Look, take that stick out of your arse will you. You are constantly ruining other peoples threads in addition to this one with your petty, often rather strange and perpetually hostile arguments. Either grow up and lighten up - or go away. Yes. But your post and this thread is focussing on central defence. Why is that? It suggests you feel there's an Achilles type weakness in that area. If Marshall and Gordon have a dodgy Fish Supper is that not a Doomsday Scenario? And if Steven Fletcher, who Gibraltar aside, has hardly been sh1ting goals, and Naismith share a Nando's is that also not a Doomsday Scenario? What is about central defence that made you start this thread? It is an Achilles heal. There's sod all depth in that area. I'm a realist who knows when it comes to Scotland, nothing is going to be plain sailing for us. Perhaps not right now at this moment, but with regard to the future there are some concerns when it comes to central defence until we get a few young central defenders playing regularly in the Scottish Premiership, the English Premier League or Championship, or a fairly sound league. With regard to the other positions ... Goalkeepers ? I know he won't be available for the upcoming two games but in the future McGregor will still be around to fall back on and I till think he's still half decent. Remove him and the others to consider are Cammy Bell, Scott Bain, Matt Gilks or at a push auld Neil Alexander or young Jordan Archer. Midfielders ? If anything, we're bursting with them right now. In addition to those already in the squad there's quite a few knocking on the door. Nothing to worry about there for now. Strikers ? Take Fletcher and Naismith out the reckoning and you've still got Leigh Griffiths, Johnny Russell, Jordan Rhodes, Ross McCormack, Stevie May and Tony Watt to throw in there. We are seriously low on central defenders and need to consider who to call upon if we have a major crisis where injuries, suspensions or someone throwing a strop could potentially cripple us in that area. Take Hanley, Berra, Martin and Greer out of the equation and who have we got ? To illustrate this point, let's consider a little alternate history...... Although this never happened let's just imagine that at some point in in 2007 and then 2008, David Weir, Gary Caldwell, Steven McManus had all been ruled out for one game. In the context of the time*, McLeish and Burley could still consider the likes of Russell Anderson, Christian Dailly, Kirk Broadfoot, Christophe Berra and Darren Barr (the latter three capped by Burley). Or if things got really bad there was still Steven Pressley, Lee Wilkie and Stephen Caldwell to consider. *Players who were either playing well or at least doing OK at the dates in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes and you are a part of that defending unit. He had the benefit of having Weir alongside him for long spells and Dailly (both generally rated as our best central defenders of the last 10 to 15 years) so surely more should be expected from those figures? Caldwell played more with Berra and McManus I think. If not, why would Weir be rated more than Caldwell if they played in the same team and part of the same defending unit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I am not the one doing the name-calling here Ersatz so it is you who should grow up and quit creating threads of the realm of sheer fantasy. If you think any Scotland squad in the last two decades would not struggle having lost their top four central defenders then you are deluded. Any team in our group would struggle losing their top four central defenders and in any case this scenario has never happened in my lifetime so why dream it up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 I am not the one doing the name-calling here Ersatz so it is you who should grow up and quit creating threads of the realm of sheer fantasy. If you think any Scotland squad in the last two decades would not struggle having lost their top four central defenders then you are deluded. Any team in our group would struggle losing their top four central defenders and in any case this scenario has never happened in my lifetime so why dream it up? Oh you are such a tease Everybody take note: "sheer fantasy" is banned now by order of Caledonian Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Oh you are such a tease Everybody take note: "sheer fantasy" is banned now by order of Caledonian Craig Well what on earth was the purpose of the thread exactly? Since, like I said, in my lifetime we've never lost four players from the centre of defense from our squad? Shock, horror Ersatz predicts doom if we lose four players from the centre of our defense. Like I said we'd struggle certainly if that had happened to us even with our strongest squads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagtag Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Aye and he was good under those managers. The argument that Caldwell was a bombscare isn't back up by evidence. Took the words out of my mouth. Some people can't look at the facts. Davie "The Rock" Weir was also a bit of a bombscare under Burley but I wouldn't blame him for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Took the words out of my mouth. Some people can't look at the facts. Davie "The Rock" Weir was also a bit of a bombscare under Burley but I wouldn't blame him for that. Well if you put up a poll on here asking who our best central defender was in this century I am sure Weir would come pretty much top of the pile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Well if you put up a poll on here asking who our best central defender was in this century I am sure Weir would come pretty much top of the pile. Possibly. Doesn't mean Caldwell was shite though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Possibly. Doesn't mean Caldwell was shite though. Now that is putting words in my mouth. I never said he was shite just I do not get this undying love for him as if he was Scotland's answer to Franz Beckenbaur when he certainly was not. I would take our current crop of central defenders before him so it really bugs me when, they, with better stats get lambasted as bombscare defenders when Caldwell is given god-like status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Now that is putting words in my mouth. I never said he was shite just I do not get this undying love for him as if he was Scotland's answer to Franz Beckenbaur when he certainly was not. Never came across anyone who's even remotely tried to say that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagtag Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Now that is putting words in my mouth. I never said he was shite just I do not get this undying love for him as if he was Scotland's answer to Franz Beckenbaur when he certainly was not. I would take our current crop of central defenders before him so it really bugs me when, they, with better stats get lambasted as bombscare defenders when Caldwell is given god-like status. Caldwell is quite possibly the most unfairly picked on player I've ever known in 40 years watching Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Caldwell is quite possibly the most unfairly picked on player I've ever known in 40 years watching Scotland. Or most bummed up - you take your pick really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Or most bummed up - you take your pick really. Where? Definitely not on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalgety Bay TA Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Never came across anyone who's even remotely tried to say that I used to call him Caldenbuer if that helps?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Where? Definitely not on here Yes on here when he was playing. Obviously, talk dies down since he no longer plays for us as happens with all ex-players in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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