Punishing The Clubs For Sectarian Fans

[RenfrewBlue]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32929665

I don't have a problem with the majority of this but Im undecided on whether you can blame the clubs for what is a bigger issue within Scottish society.

I'm more inclined to have the Police actually do their job more forcefully on match days and actually wade in and arrest the m0rons who taint our clubs and our country.

I don't want this to be a whataboutery thread but what should we be doing and who too?

Edited May 30, 2015 by RenfrewBlue

[vanderark14]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32929665

I don't have a problem with the majority of this but Im undecided on whether you can blame the clubs for what is a bigger issue within Scottish society.

I'm more inclined to have the Police actually do their job more forcefully on match days and actually wade in and arrest the m0rons who taint our clubs and our country.

I don't want this to be a whataboutery thread but what should we be doing and who too?

Do you not think that the two clubs could do more to eradicate this?

[redstevie007]

The clubs in question most certainly do have a responsibility to help stamp this stuff out. Rangers in particular need to do more. Celtic have at least warned the Greetin Brigade (albeit pretty benignly) that they need to behave themselves.

I agree that the Police could and should do more, but faced with choice of naughty singing or a riot if they go in what could they do? Retrospectively kicking perpetrators doors in after identifying them from their seat position or CCTV would be a start.

[Rossy]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32929665

I don't have a problem with the majority of this but Im undecided on whether you can blame the clubs for what is a bigger issue within Scottish society.

I'm more inclined to have the Police actually do their job more forcefully on match days and actually wade in and arrest the m0rons who taint our clubs and our country.

I don't want this to be a whataboutery thread but what should we be doing and who too?

The fact is, once Rangers were threatened by UEFA with sanctions, the club and the fans sat up and took notice and took more immediate action in a fortnight than they'd done in the last century.

The Old Firm aren't to blame for sectarianism, but they've certainly been a willing vehicle for it.

The problem could be eradicated from football within a week if either club were deducted 5 points everytime their fans were found guilty of sectarian singing.

Unfortunately, the SFA have abdicated their responsibilities since the beginning of time. Always too shit scared to tackle it head on.

[aaid]

If they are serious about doing something about the problem then strict liability has to be the way to go. Start by docking points and/or closing sections of the ground. Fining the clubs doesn't work and there are obvious logistical challenges in arresting hundreds of people en-masse.

You've got to get into a position where the fans themselves are the ones who start to feel the pain directly, then the majority will exert pressure on the minority to toe the line.

But of course the clubs had a chance to do something about this last year but as usual opted for self-interest.

[RenfrewBlue]

All good points but some of the knuckledraggers who cause the trouble don't really give a toss about the club, therefore punishing the Club won't necessarily help.

I don't know what the answer is but I could live with a major police presence and dozens arrested as a good starter. It would only take a couple of games to get that message over.

[kumnio]

The clubs in question should absolutely be punished. They offer a safe haven for the lowlifes to preach their beliefs.

If a place like The Arches can get closed for their clientèles behaviour, then so should fitba clubs. It might end up punishing innocent fans, but Id think these people would soon let the lowlifes know that they arent welcome, a wee bit of self policing would go a very long way.

[Rossy]

All good points but some of the knuckledraggers who cause the trouble don't really give a toss about the club, therefore punishing the Club won't necessarily help.

.

I know what you mean, but it only took one edict from UEFA a few years back and 'we're up to our knees in fenian blood' disappeared from the songbook (OK, temporarily) overnight.

I think that vast majority of OF fans care more about the club than the songbook. Give Rangers/Celtic a 5 point deduction with a threat of a 10 point penalty next time around, and a century of sectarian pish would pretty much disappear from the grounds overnight.

[RenfrewBlue]

I know what you mean, but it only took one edict from UEFA a few years back and 'we're up to our knees in fenian blood' disappeared from the songbook (OK, temporarily) overnight.

I think that vast majority of OF fans care more about the club than the songbook. Give Rangers/Celtic a 5 point deduction with a threat of a 10 point penalty next time around, and a century of sectarian pish would pretty much disappear from the grounds overnight.

You're probably right. The larger numbers are what get classed as the 90 minute bigots with a hardcore of scum in there in a much smaller quantity.

It just irritates the hell out of me to see the police just watching them sing their filth. I'd like to see the law taken seriously and upheld there and then. If they were stealing stuff or assaulting a little old lady it would be different but why?

[RenfrewBlue]

The clubs in question should absolutely be punished. They offer a safe haven for the lowlifes to preach their beliefs.

If a place like The Arches can get closed for their clientèles behaviour, then so should fitba clubs. It might end up punishing innocent fans, but Id think these people would soon let the lowlifes know that they arent welcome, a wee bit of self policing would go a very long way.

Self policing doesn't work. No one is going to tell some of these bams to shut up as they'd get a kicking for their trouble. It just won't work in my opinion.

[redstevie007]

Self policing doesn't work. No one is going to tell some of these bams to shut up as they'd get a kicking for their trouble. It just won't work in my opinion.

Agreed. It's not up to fans to shut these people up, it's the clubs' and the police's job. Although when most of them are joining in for their 90 minute sing song it's a moot point anyway.

[RenfrewBlue]

Do you not think that the two clubs could do more to eradicate this?

Definitely. Problem is it reduces their revenue. Maybe the punishment has to exceed the revenue drop from banning the bigots? Maybe then the business case would be made for the clubs and it would just become good business practice?

[usainboltyarocket]

Agreed. It's not up to fans to shut these people up, it's the clubs' and the police's job. Although when most of them are joining in for their 90 minute sing song it's a moot point anyway.

I hope songs about paedophilia are suitably punished as well.

[Rossy]

I hope songs about paedophilia are suitably punished as well.

Yeah.

Because that's the same as generations of bigotry and sectarianism.

[usainboltyarocket]

Yeah.

Because that's the same as generations of bigotry and sectarianism.

Have Protestants suffered from Celtic fans in Scotland? No. Anti Protestant songs in the stands? No. Refusing Protestants employment because of their religion? No. Protestants turned away or not considered to play for our club? Again no.

The support for the IRA is obviously not popular but IMO it's not sectarian just the same as support for the British army is not sectarian as well.

Edited May 30, 2015 by usainboltyarocket

[Big Col]

we seem to be in a situation where nobody wants to take the first step in punishing these folk

the SFA - turn a blind eye to it

the clubs - say they've done all they can. Its a problem in the wider scottish society.

the Police - say they can't arrest 1000 folk at the same time.

I think the SFA are scared to make the first move cos as soon as they properly punish one club (closed doors game or docked points) it will immediately start a 'whataboutery' storm.

[RenfrewBlue]

we seem to be in a situation where nobody wants to take the first step in punishing these folk

the SFA - turn a blind eye to it

the clubs - say they've done all they can. Its a problem in the wider scottish society.

the Police - say they can't arrest 1000 folk at the same time.

I think the SFA are scared to make the first move cos as soon as they properly punish one club (closed doors game or docked points) it will immediately start a 'whataboutery' storm.

I know what you mean but if they put the rules in place before the season starts and make it very clear there would be no excuse.

Let's face it, there would be a couple of clubs caught in the first week anyway.

[RenfrewBlue]

Have Protestants suffered from Celtic fans in Scotland? No. Anti Protestant songs in the stands? No. Refusing Protestants employment because of their religion? No. Protestants turned away or not considered to play for our club? Again no.

The support for the IRA is obviously not popular but IMO it's not sectarian just the same as support for the British army is not sectarian as well.

Your point doesn't actually hold. The IRA are a terrorist organisation. You can't compare them to the British Army.

Also you're right that songs about them aren't sectarian but they are offensive, just like the paedophile songs and should be punished just like the sectarian stuff.

[Ally Bongo]

Your point doesn't actually hold. The IRA are a terrorist organisation. You can't compare them to the British Army.

Did you watch Panorama ?

[redstevie007]

Your point doesn't actually hold. The IRA are a terrorist organisation. You can't compare them to the British Army.

Also you're right that songs about them aren't sectarian but they are offensive, just like the paedophile songs and should be punished just like the sectarian stuff.

You started this discussion by stating you didn't want this to be a whataboutery thread and yet here you are......

Sectarianism is the scourge that supposedly taints 'Scottish' football. In reality it's two teams fans who indulge in it. The rest of us couldn't give a f*ck about King Billy, the IRA, the Pope or the Queen. Deal with the cretins at Celtic Park and Ibrox and we'd be well on our way to a better atmosphere for all.

[RenfrewBlue]

You started this discussion by stating you didn't want this to be a whataboutery thread and yet here you are......

Sectarianism is the scourge that supposedly taints 'Scottish' football. In reality it's two teams fans who indulge in it. The rest of us couldn't give a f*ck about King Billy, the IRA, the Pope or the Queen. Deal with the cretins at Celtic Park and Ibrox and we'd be well on our way to a better atmosphere for all.

I don't get your point. Are you saying it's OK to sing some offensive songs but not others? As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong) any song that breaches the law should be dealt with the same way.

Are you defending the singing of these sings?

Sectarianism is the biggest problem by a country mile and needs addressed first but that excuse other folks doing similar things that they think "aren't as bad".

Perhaps if fans bodies lobbies the SFA it would help but I doubt it. After all, as we are reminded ad nauseum, the clubs are the SFA.

[redstevie007]

I don't get your point. Are you saying it's OK to sing some offensive songs but not others? As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong) any song that breaches the law should be dealt with the same way.

Are you defending the singing of these sings?

Sectarianism is the biggest problem by a country mile and needs addressed first but that excuse other folks doing similar things that they think "aren't as bad".

Perhaps if fans bodies lobbies the SFA it would help but I doubt it. After all, as we are reminded ad nauseum, the clubs are the SFA.

Sectarianism's the big issue in Scotland, unique to the OF in fact. Football fans the world over sing offensive songs at each other, the ref, the FA's etc, so stopping it's difficult. In Scotland just two sets of neanderthals indulge in sectarian singing and points deductions, closed stands and bans on away fans would soon put an end to it, at least in the grounds anyway.

[Rossy]

Sectarianism's the big issue in Scotland, unique to the OF in fact. Football fans the world over sing offensive songs at each other, the ref, the FA's etc, so stopping it's difficult. In Scotland just two sets of neanderthals indulge in sectarian singing and points deductions, closed stands and bans on away fans would soon put an end to it, at least in the grounds anyway.

This.

We need to nip this 'whataboutery' in the bud. It suits both OF teams to muddy the waters and deflect blame away from them on to others.

From the beginning of time, this has given the SFA and others a way out.

Religious bigotry and sectarianism are the sole property of 2 clubs. If we want it out of the game, these 2 clubs need to be sanctioned.

[stocky]

Singing about the IRA/UDA is different to singing sectarian songs.. both have no place in Football but they are different things, equally obnoxious, and should not be sung....

[Rossy]

Singing about the IRA/UDA is different to singing sectarian songs.. both have no place in Football but they are different things, equally obnoxious, and should not be sung....

Both stem from the same poisonous root.

They're different sides of the same sectarian coin.