Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Independence is the only far-reaching solution to the ills of this country. And when I say 'this country', I don't just mean Scotland. Absolute utter nonsense The people working to build a more just society will still face the same challenges in an independent Scotland as they do now. In fact it can be argued that it will be more difficult given the TU's will be split. A point that many independence supporters seem to forget when lauding their beloved Nordic model. Meanwhile people like you won't be giving a fück anymore because you have your beloved independent country... With austerity running wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stapes Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Absolute utter nonsense The people working to build a more just society will still face the same challenges in an independent Scotland as they do now. In fact it can be argued that it will be more difficult given the TU's will be split. A point that many independence supporters seem to forget when lauding their beloved Nordic model. Meanwhile people like you won't be giving a fück anymore because you have your beloved independent country... With austerity running wild. And yet we've had 40+ years with the existing model, and people working to build a more just society. It isn't happening. We can't just keep on trying the same old same old, because the establishment is happy with the way things are. I'm not for a second saying we will be in some kind of Utopian paradise, but it's my belief that we have a better chance of building your more just society within an independent Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 And yet we've had 40+ years with the existing model, and people working to build a more just society. It isn't happening. We can't just keep on trying the same old same old, because the establishment is happy with the way things are. I'm not for a second saying we will be in some kind of Utopian paradise, but it's my belief that we have a better chance of building your more just society within an independent Scotland. Here's a newsflash for you comrade, there is little difference in the social attitudes of Scottish & English people as shown consistently by Social attitude surveys despite independence supporters screaming "but, but they voted Tory". The English & Scottish attitudes on immigration are almost identical, hence why populist party SNP have the same immigration policy as UKIP. And how on earth are we going to build a more just society when people like you are intent on destroying all opposition to a party committed to setting corporation tax at 3% below rUK level effectively destroying public services and bringing in crippling austerity? You are the underpants gnome of politics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumnio Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 hence why populist party SNP have the same immigration policy as UKIP. Too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Too far. They do. They're just smarter than UKIP to blame EVERYTHING on foreigners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumnio Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 They dont. For a very basic start, the SNP are pro European movement, so thats a very simple difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 They dont. For a very basic start, the SNP are pro European movement, so thats a very simple difference. They do. UKIP: Points based immigration system. SNP: Points based immigration system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stapes Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 destroying all opposition to [the SNP] I have no interest in destroying the Labour Party. I think a one-party state is a dangerous thing (look what Labour did to us in the decades they ran a one-party state). I'm merely arguing that voting for a left-wing leader weakens the argument for independence, and therefore we shouldn't vote for him. We should be looking to weaken the Labour Party in the short term, forcing a split whereby Scotland gets a left wing Labour Party that supports independence and policies that reflect what members, supporters and ex-supporters in Scotland are crying out for. I'm sure your superior intellect will have a smart answer as to why I'm completely deluded and only your path is the right one, but I've been down the Duncan Hothersall route (arguing with someone who's never wrong) before and have no intention of going down it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I have no interest in destroying the Labour Party. I think a one-party state is a dangerous thing (look what Labour did to us in the decades they ran a one-party state). I'm merely arguing that voting for a left-wing leader weakens the argument for independence, and therefore we shouldn't vote for him. We should be looking to weaken the Labour Party in the short term, forcing a split whereby Scotland gets a left wing Labour Party that supports independence and policies that reflect what members, supporters and ex-supporters in Scotland are crying out for. I'm sure your superior intellect will have a smart answer as to why I'm completely deluded and only your path is the right one, but I've been down the Duncan Hothersall route (arguing with someone who's never wrong) before and have no intention of going down it again. Behave yourself, I'm often wrong. Ask Phart... Or Wine Bibbler with his dossier. And I often argue with Mr. Hothersall. A few things though. Why would there be a Left Wing split of the Labour Party effectively abandoning the unique TU link that Labour represents? It would be a "Labour Party" in name only. If all Socialists had abandoned the Labour Party they wouldn't be in the position where Corbyn could become leader. And why would a Left Wing Labour Party support independence? The natural Left Wing position is in opposition to independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumnio Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 They do. UKIP: Points based immigration system. SNP: Points based immigration system. Thats pretty much every country in the world then. Including Australia, New Zealand, Canada and USA, also the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stapes Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm not asking for a split of the left - I'm asking for a split of the left and right. The trade union link would be retained (wrongly imo - why do we need that link?). The natural position of the Labour Party left wing may be opposition to independence, but that is not the case for many (most?) of their ex-members. Most former Labour members I know left the party due to the Iraq war. Most support independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm not asking for a split of the left - I'm asking for a split of the left and right. The trade union link would be retained (wrongly imo - why do we need that link?). The natural position of the Labour Party left wing may be opposition to independence, but that is not the case for many (most?) of their ex-members. Most former Labour members I know left the party due to the Iraq war. Most support independence. Of course the link would be lost. The TU's aren't going to align with a split. Are you not a fan of the Nordic model that so many in the independence support love? It's only possible due to the Norway having majority TU representation. I was in an absolute minority in my support for independence among comrades. I still am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stocky Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I have no interest in destroying the Labour Party. I think a one-party state is a dangerous thing (look what Labour did to us in the decades they ran a one-party state). I'm merely arguing that voting for a left-wing leader weakens the argument for independence, and therefore we shouldn't vote for him. We should be looking to weaken the Labour Party in the short term, forcing a split whereby Scotland gets a left wing Labour Party that supports independence and policies that reflect what members, supporters and ex-supporters in Scotland are crying out for. I'm sure your superior intellect will have a smart answer as to why I'm completely deluded and only your path is the right one, but I've been down the Duncan Hothersall route (arguing with someone who's never wrong) before and have no intention of going down it again. i think Corbyn is bad for SNP, but good for Labour. we will see what happens.. not sure how it affects Indepenence.. obviously Labour doing poorly ,should help Indy , so Labour doing well should have opposite effect.. but I dont think so England will have a Left Labour Leader and Scotland will have a Right Labour Leader... The battle in Scotland is no Longer left and Right, Labour and Tory have merged Here to be come the Unionist party.. they are fighting for control of that vote The battle in Scotland is Dependence or Independence.. I like Corbyn. Him and Nicola can sort the Tories out, But thats only my opinion..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Thats pretty much every country in the world then. Including Australia, New Zealand, Canada and USA, also the UK. Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 To show there's no hard feelings I've made you a present Stapes. It's a motivational poster, it's a bit rough as I'm on my mobile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stapes Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm not really sure the point you're trying to make with the poster. But without phase 1, phase 3 will never happen. Going back to my original point, Corbyn makes phase 1 less likely. There are many aspects to phase 2. As I think we agree though, we won't just walk from phase 1 to phase 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm not really sure the point you're trying to make with the poster. But without phase 1, phase 3 will never happen. Just keep fighting the good fight comrade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 a party committed to setting corporation tax at 3% below rUK level effectively destroying public services and bringing in crippling austerity? You keep beating the SNP with this stick Scunnered. I know we've had discussions about this before, but i don't remember you conclusively proving your assertion above (this is where you talk about the Kyle Lafferty curve, or something). I need to start giving you daily updates from here in Ireland on how the low corp tax policy is working. Yesterday it was Uber announcing 150 jobs in Limerick. Today it's that Ireland has the fastest growing economy in the EU (4.1% this year). Unemployment down to 9-point-something (from 15% after the bailout a few years back). Will keep you posted on the good news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Too far. He is becoming a bit of a parody of himself. I think the is trying to invent a character like that McGlashan fella, but instead of hating anything English he just hates anything SNP. An Anti-McGlashan, maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 You keep beating the SNP with this stick Scunnered. I know we've had discussions about this before, but i don't remember you conclusively proving your assertion above (this is where you talk about the Kyle Lafferty curve, or something). I need to start giving you daily updates from here in Ireland on how the low corp tax policy is working. Yesterday it was Uber announcing 150 jobs in Limerick. Today it's that Ireland has the fastest growing economy in the EU (4.1% this year). Unemployment down to 9-point-something (from 15% after the bailout a few years back). Will keep you posted on the good news I'm super happy capital is doing super good in Ireland. I'm a tad upset that inequality is still on the rise and public services continue to be cut. I did notice a few weeks ago that the Government did promise an increase of public spending in the next 5 years... But I doubt it. We'll revisit this in 5 years and see who's right. Hint: It won't be you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) He is becoming a bit of a parody of himself. I think the is trying to invent a character like that McGlashan fella, but instead of hating anything English he just hates anything SNP. An Anti-McGlashan, maybe?A parody? what I said was entirely accurate Edit: There's an old Socialist ditty that goes: Labour, Tory same old story. Join the class struggle today...And the SNP are cünts. Edited July 30, 2015 by Scunnered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 A parody? what I said was entirely accurate Sorry, meant to type "parrot" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Sorry, meant to type "parrot" Oh. Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 The UK has the potential to be a very different country with Corbyn as prime minister. The hard task is getting him elected labour leader and then getting labour elected because the establishment as we've seen already will do everything within their powers to stop it. The problem is that he's only one man and a minority within the Labour Party. If he fails a 'socialist' UK is very difficult to see in the future. I want Corbyn elected because I believe in his politics, if it damages independence then so be it, although medium to long term I see independence as the only option for a fairer society. UK is too powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 The UK has the potential to be a very different country with Corbyn as prime minister. The hard task is getting him elected labour leader and then getting labour elected because the establishment as we've seen already will do everything within their powers to stop it. The problem is that he's only one man and a minority within the Labour Party. If he fails a 'socialist' UK is very difficult to see in the future. I want Corbyn elected because I believe in his politics, if it damages independence then so be it, although medium to long term I see independence as the only option for a fairer society. UK is too powerful. You're a good lad Have a read at this. The challenges facing a fairer society in Britain are just as applicable to an Indy Scotland. http://www.scottishcommunists.org.uk/britain-s-road-to-socialism-road-to-revolution/289-britains-road-to-socialism-2011-edition-pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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