killiefaetheferry Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Aye, so innocent families being bombed over there in the search for terrorists who they can't find is just one of those things then? We will find the terrorists in hospitals and schools and markets. And there is no such thing as 'innocent families' in Islamaland, there is only 'collateral damage'. Please keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 The ideology of ISIS developed over centuries before any western bombing, before 9/11, before Iraq. If you give them space and time to plot they will attack the West .i.e us, you, your family. Al Qaeda is a very diminished force due to it being hounded and its operatives attacked. Same thing needed for ISIS. Every day they throw homosexuals off roof tops, rape women from other faiths making them sex slaves, hack off limbs of people against them, murder and create fear to live in their utopian caliphate, plot and manipulate the weak to act as suicide bombers. They are pure evil and the only way to defeat them is to kill them. Muslim scholars need to battle the ideology which is long term. In the meantime a governments first rule is to protect its citizens and the UK government must do that. It's naive to think bombing Syria will keep uk citizens safer. Never mind the killing of innocent civilians. Collateral damage eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) We will find the terrorists in hospitals and schools and markets. And there is no such thing as 'innocent families' in Islamaland, there is only 'collateral damage'. Please keep up. And anyone of working age and male is a potential terrorists. Better to take them out before they hurt us. Edited November 28, 2015 by ParisInAKilt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Even if this is true, and I'm not convinced it is, then stop selling weapons to the east and aligning our selves with other countries who support the bad guys. Smarter people than me and you claim that the Iraq war destabilised the Iraq army, caused massive sectarian violence and segregation, which helped create Isis, further claims that the cia trained, armed and funded fighters who defected to Isis. This is the hpyocracy of the west You have valid points but what happened then cannot stop us acting now. Who would have that a pretty ordinary guy who was not a formal scholar would have the obsessive ideology, skill and power to don black robes, declare a caliphate and control huge swathes of land with a medieval form of Islam? The threat is now. It needs to be tackled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killiefaetheferry Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 And anyone of working age and male is a potential terrorists. Better to take them out before they hurt us. Well why don't we round them up and take them to a secret island location to find out what they know then ? What could possibly go wrong ? No downside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 And anyone of working age and male is a potential terrorists. Better to take them out before they hurt us. You're moving debate away from targeting an evil fighting force to now bombing random cities and people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 You have valid points but what happened then cannot stop us acting now. Who would have that a pretty ordinary guy who was not a formal scholar would have the obsessive ideology, skill and power to don black robes, declare a caliphate and control huge swathes of land with a medieval form of Islam? The threat is now. It needs to be tackled. Give us one example were an aggressive foreign intervention in the Middle East has lead to a safer world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 You're moving debate away from targeting an evil fighting force to now bombing random cities and people. I don't think I am. There's been reports already that the French attacks destroyed civilan buildings, a museum and school Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) Well why don't we round them up and take them to a secret island location to find out what they know then ? What could possibly go wrong ? No downside Too many expenses We're the west, we can kill people without a trial Edited November 28, 2015 by ParisInAKilt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 What is needed is other Muslim middle eastern countries to sort this mess out. ISIS want Western intervention. It gives them a legitimate grievance and aids THEIR narrative (Crusaders, Christains v Muslims). We should be doing our utmost not to assist with that. Our cosy relationship with the Kingdom of Saaud is also exasperating the situation, as it's these fecks that are funding ISIS. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killiefaetheferry Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Give us one example were an aggressive foreign intervention in the Middle East has lead to a safer world? When team America (World Police) obliterated Cairo ? Montgomery shafting Rommel ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Give us one example were an aggressive foreign intervention in the Middle East has lead to a safer world? In an earlier post I said Al Qaeda is very much diminished and decreased threat to us. Now if AQ and Bin Laden had been taken down when they bombed US embassies in Africa before 9/11 etc then maybe we'd be in a better place. Who knows? ISIS would kill you, me, our families and friends. They will target UK regardless as we are a liberal democracy with alcohol, music, freedom and lots of other crazy stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 In an earlier post I said Al Qaeda is very much diminished and decreased threat to us. Now if AQ and Bin Laden had been taken down when they bombed US embassies in Africa before 9/11 etc then maybe we'd be in a better place. Who knows? ISIS would kill you, me, our families and friends. They will target UK regardless as we are a liberal democracy with alcohol, music, freedom and lots of other crazy stuff. So no clear example? What happens after we destroy Isis? Just creates another vacuum for someone else who doesn't like us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 So no clear example? What happens after we destroy Isis? Just creates another vacuum for someone else who doesn't like us It's reasonably clear example to me. World is a complicated place and there is no real way to predict cause and effect. ISIS is a threat to my family. I want the government to protect me and challenge them and weaken them at their base. I want my MP to stand up and protect me but he doesn't speak out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) Always worth remembering what you vote for when you vote Tory.... Dave Cameron is a lap dog to Obama and Obama is a lap dog to the lobby. Which is why the middle east is being Yinon'ized country by country. If Russia had not intervened Syria would be a smoking ruin right now and we would be facing a far worse refugee problem than now. That is conservative rule for you. Yaaaay... Remember Gove screaming at MP's after they had voted down bombing the country. Imagine the fukking mess had they won that vote... nutcases. By 2009, according to the Channel 4 documentary Dispatches – Inside Britain's Israel Lobby, around 80% of Conservative MPs were members of the CFI.[2] In 2013, Peter Oborne, the Daily Telegraph's chief political commentator called CFI “by far Britain’s most powerful pro-Israel lobbying group”, which “acts as if every Jew in the country is a Likud supporter. The same is true of AIPAC in the US.”[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Friends_of_Israel Edited November 28, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) It's reasonably clear example to me. World is a complicated place and there is no real way to predict cause and effect. ISIS is a threat to my family. I want the government to protect me and challenge them and weaken them at their base. I want my MP to stand up and protect me but he doesn't speak out. I thought in over 60 years of interventions in the Middle East and all around the world there would be a relatively modern example better than that. I'd argue it's been made more complicated by the foreign policies of western governments and that won't end by bombing Syria, it won't destroy Isis or what they stand for and won't made you and your family andy safer as history will likely repeat itself. Edited November 28, 2015 by ParisInAKilt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 ISIS is a threat to my family. I want the government to protect me and challenge them and weaken them at their base. I want my MP to stand up and protect me but he doesn't speak out. It would be great if your MP could protect you and your family from ISIS by 'standing up' and 'speaking out' or by voting for UK to join a programme of airstrikes that is already happening. Sadly the situation is more complicated than that, as I'm sure you know. In which case, if you read the original article at the start of this thread, the view from someone who has followed ISIS on the ground in Syria, can you suggest how your MP could best protect you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 It's reasonably clear example to me. World is a complicated place and there is no real way to predict cause and effect. ISIS is a threat to my family. I want the government to protect me and challenge them and weaken them at their base. I want my MP to stand up and protect me but he doesn't speak out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernscum Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Much nearer the truth than we are getting from our MSM, I suggest? http://youtu.be/j0KfAqu1KOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Interview in Göring's cell (3 January 1946) Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars. Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. Same rules apply. J Are you John McDonnell's ideas man? Can we expect to see him throwing a copy of Mein Kampf at Callmedave next week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 The ideology of ISIS developed over centuries before any western bombing, before 9/11, before Iraq. If you give them space and time to plot they will attack the West .i.e us, you, your family. Al Qaeda is a very diminished force due to it being hounded and its operatives attacked. Same thing needed for ISIS. Every day they throw homosexuals off roof tops, rape women from other faiths making them sex slaves, hack off limbs of people against them, murder and create fear to live in their utopian caliphate, plot and manipulate the weak to act as suicide bombers. They are pure evil and the only way to defeat them is to kill them. Muslim scholars need to battle the ideology which is long term. In the meantime a governments first rule is to protect its citizens and the UK government must do that. Doesn't even make sense. "They are pure evil and the only way to defeat them is to kill them." If that's the case then "Muslim scholars need to battle the ideology which is long term." doesn't matter, they're all dead. How many fcukin times do we have try and bomb things out of existence before we realise that we are planting the seeds for the same or even more extreme retaliation.It's infantile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Interview in Göring's cell (3 January 1946) Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars. Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. Same rules apply. J Is that not thread finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Peter Hitchins demolishes "fantasist" Cameron http://www.lbc.co.uk/peter-hitchens-on-camerons-delusional-case-for-war--120456 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Hmmm wonder where all the pressure in America and Britain is coming from to get rid of Assad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Are Israel on any side in this, or are they just happy to sit back and watch everybody else bomb fuk out of each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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